Fiat Spiders

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

turboswede wrote: Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection. Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Do wobbly bolts really work? ugh, I think I'd rather slot a set of 4 x 100's and cut a new seat lug seat to make it fir the 4 x 98 hubs.

yes they do, then you get lots of cheap 4x100s

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

turboswede wrote: Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection. Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Do wobbly bolts really work? ugh, I think I'd rather slot a set of 4 x 100's and cut a new seat lug seat to make it fir the 4 x 98 hubs.

Not if you ever plan on autocrossing it- wobble bolts have a specific ban in the DCSCC rule book. Along with slot mags.

(no other input than that- Fiats are cool-nice to read about, just we know more about Alfas...)

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Raze wrote: Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

Ditto on the engineer, but I'd want a solid running car to tinker with as needed / running restoration as I know the truth of it is a full on strip down restoration would defeat my time and enthusiasm constraints and end up as another unfinished project.

Most of the major fixes I called out can be accomplished in a weekend and several hundred $. In defense, I bought a project, and didn't work on it as feverishly as most on this board would. I might drive the car less than 1 time per month during the summer and winter, and a whole lot in the spring/fall, so most of my work comes in winter...

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

turboswede wrote: Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection. Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Do wobbly bolts really work? ugh, I think I'd rather slot a set of 4 x 100's and cut a new seat lug seat to make it fir the 4 x 98 hubs.

Yep. Other Italian cars used 4x98 (Alfa's mostly) and of course you can check around MiraFiori.com for people selling their wheels, cars and other parts. Plus there is a good amount of information there.

From what I understand, the Fiat Spiders are more reliable than their UK counterparts, plus they are more modern and therefore more comfortable.

Rust and electrical corrosion will be something you get to fight with constantly, but I know people that run Spiders and X-1/9's as Daily Drivers to this day and love them. The key is to not let maintenance slide and to fix the problems as soon as possible and most importantly, drive them often, they don't like to sit.

There are 4x98 wheels out there. I got a used set of Superlite 13x7s in 4x98 for $250. Personally I would never use wobble bolts.

Raze wrote: Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

Funny, but car's needy nature drives me nuts. Must be the kind of engineering work I do.

I'm ok with special care, and that I have to pay more attention. But if it constantly needs something to keep going- yea, not so much.

BUT, IMHO, Fiat's are like Alfas. It's not that they are unreliable- my '73 pictured on the side is awesome. It's that the PO's are either unreliable or cheap- or both. Fiat people I know don't spend a lot of time tinkering with cars that they sorted out- they just enjoy the daylights out of them.

The whole Fix It Again Tony is a total myth, I think.

alfadriver wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

turboswede wrote: Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection. Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Do wobbly bolts really work? ugh, I think I'd rather slot a set of 4 x 100's and cut a new seat lug seat to make it fir the 4 x 98 hubs.

Not if you ever plan on autocrossing it- wobble bolts have a specific ban in the DCSCC rule book. Along with slot mags. (no other input than that- Fiats are cool-nice to read about, just we know more about Alfas...)

Eric, I assume you mean you can't slot the wheel holes by 1mm and recutting the seats rather than banning the classic slot mags

But seriously why, have there been issues in the past? Except for shoulder bolts most studs / bolts don't locate on the lug.

alfadriver wrote:

Raze wrote: Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

Funny, but car's needy nature drives me nuts. Must be the kind of engineering work I do. I'm ok with special care, and that I have to pay more attention. But if it constantly needs something to keep going- yea, not so much. BUT, IMHO, Fiat's are like Alfas. It's not that they are unreliable- my '73 pictured on the side is awesome. It's that the PO's are either unreliable or cheap- or both. Fiat people I know don't spend a lot of time tinkering with cars that they sorted out- they just enjoy the daylights out of them. The whole Fix It Again Tony is a total myth, I think.

To be clear, my "needy nature" statement was in relation to new cars, I put the Haynes manual's scheduled maintenance next to my 2007 Ford Ranger's, service intervals on the fiat are measured in the 1,000s of miles, while the Ranger in 10,000s or 100,000s of miles. I don't like reworking problems, but I do like solving them, that's the kind of engineering I'm talking about

and you're right on, I spend more time driving mine now than I do fixing it, in fact I've had to go looking for problems, a sorted car is well a sorted car, and POs lack of maintenance are usually the biggest reason these cars get a bad rap...

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

I've seen those on a Spider, friggin gorgeous!

Don't know about a ban on wobble bolts, but I've used them on a couple of different cars with no issues. I think the 'slotted' wheel mentioned has the lug hole slotted.

Wobble bolts (Varilug or Varibolt) Slotted lug holes:

These were made so the same wheel could be used on a 5-4 1/2" Ford or 5- 4 3/4" GM bolt circle. That way the mfg made 1 wheel instead of 2, cut down on inventory that way.

ET Wheels had a similar version with a cast recess in the wheel that used a oval washer with a tapered lug nut. Like this:

and those damn things were nearly impossible to keep tight.

Curmudgeon wrote: Slotted lug holes: These were made so the same wheel could be used on a 5-4 1/2" Ford or 5- 4 3/4" GM bolt circle. That way the mfg made 1 wheel instead of 2, cut down on inventory that way.

I did have an evil smily after the comment as I assumed Eric meant no to slotting the wheels, not to slot mags.

But that looks scarry, there's no seat in the wheel.

A bunch of us did it years ago back in England. We got a load off Lanci Dedra wheels and several of us ran GM cars (Euro Cavalier, Astra's etc). We set up the wheels on a large mill and used an indexing head to slot the bolt holes and re-cut the lug seats. Non of us ever had any issues, it worked fiene and I don't really see an issue with it.

Those just look like a bad idea, especially if you ever plan on tracking the car.

I run wobble bolts on my Fiat with no issues. They are TUV certified. Your wheels HAVE to be hubcentric for these to work though.

The problem with vintage fiat wheels is that they are terrible sizes. 13X5.5 if you are lucky. and people expect you to pay a lot of money for them. Screw that.

With the new 500's being 4X98 there are more options than ever before but pay attention to the "important notes" section on Tirerack. A lot of them say "Comes with special mounting bolts" AKA Woble bolts aka PCD Variation bolts. Although more and more are being drilled 4X98 from the factory. Hell even American Racing is doing it now, along with BBS and a few others.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Eric, I assume you mean you can't slot the wheel holes by 1mm and recutting the seats rather than banning the classic slot mags But seriously why, have there been issues in the past? Except for shoulder bolts most studs / bolts don't locate on the lug.

Sometimes, taste should be regulated...

But, yes, they were a problem- since most wheels ARE located by the studs, and not the hubs. MSCC brought the ban up a decade ago or so.

I know none of my wheels are located by the hubs- no way the tiny little shoulder on the rear axle will take the load at all.

One thing to consider- IF they are located by the center hole and hub- what kind of tolerance would you need to really make it work? Especially vs. a tapered lug.

alfadriver wrote: I know none of my wheels are located by the hubs- no way the tiny little shoulder on the rear axle will take the load at all.

Um, you realise that they don't need to take the weight of the car to center the wheel. Once you've tightened up the lugnuts, the forces will go through them, not the wheel centering flange.

foxtrapper wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I know none of my wheels are located by the hubs- no way the tiny little shoulder on the rear axle will take the load at all.

Um, you realise that they don't need to take the weight of the car to center the wheel. Once you've tightened up the lugnuts, the forces will go through them, not the wheel centering flange.

Yea, that's my point. And why I would never use wobble bolts nor slot the holes. The load travels through the shoulder of the bolt hole.

Hense the words "none" and "no way"....

ditchdigger wrote: I run wobble bolts on my Fiat with no issues. They are TUV certified. Your wheels HAVE to be hubcentric for these to work though. The problem with vintage fiat wheels is that they are terrible sizes. 13X5.5 if you are lucky. and people expect you to pay a lot of money for them. Screw that. With the new 500's being 4X98 there are more options than ever before but pay attention to the "important notes" section on Tirerack. A lot of them say "Comes with special mounting bolts" AKA Woble bolts aka PCD Variation bolts. Although more and more are being drilled 4X98 from the factory. Hell even American Racing is doing it now, along with BBS and a few others.

most modern fiat/lancia wheels will be FWD fitment.. good for a Beta, Strada, or 128.. not so good for a 124, 131, or a Montecarlo/scorpion.

Maserati Biturbo wheels WILL fit Set of 5 for $500

One other possibility: a decent machinist can rebore the 4x98 bolt holes for a press in stud and at the same time offset them so you have a 4x100 bolt circle. I had that done to some 4x110 Mazda RX2 axles, now I can run all different kinds of wheels. It cost ~$30 per axle (YMMV).

I think the 'slotted wheel' ban was probably mostly aimed at the ET Uni Lug and its variants. At the time, everyone had a similar setup, Cragar used a round washer with an offset hole, American Racing had the plain offset with no recess but you had to use a nut with a thick shank and a big thick steel washer under the nut head. The ET and Cragar setups were renowned for needing constant retorquing.

Raze wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

I've seen those on a Spider, friggin gorgeous!

My '81 Spider had those wheels, and I liked them. If I had another Spider, I'd be looking for BiTurbo wheels, as they look fantastic on pretty much every Italian car of a certain age with a 4 x 98mm bolt circle. Assuming I wanted something bigger in diameter or width, I'd get the hubs drilled for 4 x 100mm and have studs pressed in.

Regarding Spiders vs. Miatas, the only Miata I've driven is a Mazdaspeed with turbo. Without duplicating much that's been said previously, the Miata is a much more modern car, but the Fiat is surprisingly modern for a car that first made its debut in 1966.

I'm not a big guy, but at 6' and 200lb, I'm not a little guy either. I don't find the NB Miata terribly comfortable, it's a little tight for me. The Fiat may have an unusual driving position, but it's cockpit is a little more open, and less wrap around than the Miata.

The Fiat's visibility with the top up is pretty spectacular. There may be a few ragtops out there with better visibility with the top up, but not many.

Aside from that, the Fiat is stupid easy to work on. The electrical system is a cause for concern, but usually the problems are bad grounds.

Corrosion is the other big issue, but it's not really much more common than a contemporary Brit car, or Japanese car.

The longevity of production means you can mix and match parts to create your dream Spider (though this is fairly true of NA and NB Miatas too).

Forgot about that, my 124 had more interior room than any other 2 seater ragtop I have had except the Jensen and the all time interior space champ, my 914. it also had hands down the best top design of any small ragtop until the Miata came along, and I do think Mazda copied Fiat's design.

Friend of mine is selling his, he's local for you, Adrian. I'll send you a PM.

it's a 78 or 79 Spider 2000. Runs, very minor rust (couple 1 inch spots on the rear quarters), and has a great set of Panasports with the proper bolt pattern. He's asking low 2k's for it.

Which wheels are those? Because that entire car, the whole package, simply looks the business.

Those are off a Alfetta coupe, mid 70s. That whole car is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle (early bumpers, 1800 hood and grille, early door handles, 2.0 side emblems), and WTF is with those side mirrors?

I'm 6'-3" and the 124 Spider is one of the few ragtops I could fit in. Other than constantly breaking clutch cables, the one I owned was fine. Best/easiest top latching mechanism I ever ran across.

The steering wheel position is the Italian preference to grab the wheel from the bottom (4 o'clock and 8 o'clock). If you set the seat for hands at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock your feet/the pedals will be too close. If you set the seat for the correct feet/pedals distance, you'll be reaching for 2 and 10 on the steering wheel.

In reply to ddavidv:

That's those cheapo parts store mirrors that were really common back in the 1980's. Rest of the car really looks nice.

Gearheadotaku wrote: Friend of mine is selling his, he's local for you, Adrian. I'll send you a PM. it's a 78 or 79 Spider 2000. Runs, very minor rust (couple 1 inch spots on the rear quarters), and has a great set of Panasports with the proper bolt pattern. He's asking low 2k's for it.

I'm not in the market yet (see all my parts adds inthe $2012 challenge section) and in reallity I'm hoping closer to $1k. I did get your PM and I'll respond to you in that.