novaderrik wrote:Knurled wrote: My point is that the Focus is a performance car, the Fusion isn't. They cater to completely different demographics.then why are they doing this in NASCAR?
For the same reason they used a Taurus for NASCAR most likely. They are both performance cars.
The new Focus ST is a spicy little number. I got to drive one in anger recently, and the biggest thing that made me walk away (besides screw a car payment) was the whole 28k FOR A FOCUS. I hope the Fiesta ST doesn't suffer a similar fate.
I thought my mazda2 would be awesome with only 20-30 horsepower more, I cant imagine twice the power and an extra overdrive...
mndsm wrote: The new Focus ST is a spicy little number. I got to drive one in anger recently, and the biggest thing that made me walk away (besides screw a car payment) was the whole 28k FOR A FOCUS. I hope the Fiesta ST doesn't suffer a similar fate.
Exactly. For 28k, it isn't a BETTER Focus, just merely a faster Focus. That makes it 13k(?) more then the basic base model and still comes with the same E36 M3ty interior and exterior. Yet all you get is a bigger HP engine, "better" trans, and upgraded suspension, I still have yet to figure out how they are all worth a whole OTHER Focus nearly.
Knurled said: My point is that the Focus is a performance car
giggle
Might as well call a Mustang GT a MPG car....
Ranger50 wrote: Exactly. For 28k, it IS a BETTER Focus,it's also a much faster and better handling Focus. for only13k(?) more then the basic base model and still comes with the same amazing interior and exterior. You get is a bigger HP engine, better trans, and upgraded suspension, I still have yet to figure out how they the keep the price so resonable.Fixed that for you
In reply to Ranger50:
Where are you? The price I keep getting for the Focus ST is $23k, which is $1k LOWER than the Titanium.
That, and I wonder where you are finding a $15k base Focus, since the base price I'm seeing around here is $16.2k.
So either your source is overcharging for the ST, or undercharging for the base. Oh, my source is ford.com.
edit- for correctness- the base ST is $23.7k, the Titanium is $24.2k. Still, the ST's base price is lower than the top level Titanium.... and a long way from $28k, unless you dress it up a lot.
In reply to alfadriver:
Apples to Apples for Ranger50, the Focus Sedan is the $16,200 one (and I've seen plenty in stock priced at $15K), but the hatchwagon 5-door is $19,200 (and the only bodystyle the ST is available in).
At $23,700 for the base ST, that's only $4,500 for the bigger turbo motor, the 6-speed, the suspension, the wheels, the brakes, the bodykit, and the interior gubbins that make the ST special. That sounds pretty good.
The big problem is that nearly every ST made is the 202A Rapid Spec version, which starts at $28,930. That's one single option box equals BLAMMO! $29K Focus. Don't say it's not common either, because it's the only way to spec out HID's, and it's how you get he STYNC system. Paint it Yellow and add the Moonroof and you have a $30,320 Focus. For $20 less you can have a 400+ HP V8 5.0 GT Mustang...
You can load out a Titanium to the hilt including the 2-tone leather for $26,540, for comparison.
As for the Fiesta ST, sounds like a nice 5-door option to the FIAT 500 Abarth.
In reply to alfadriver:
I thought I remember seeing base S models at 15k, this may have been on a '12 and not a '13 last time I looked, and 28k for the ST was listed above.
Every and I mean EVERY vehicle on a dealers lot has ADM on it, normally 2k tacked on for absolutely nothing except the "pleasure" of buying from the dealer.
From my cheap seat, a Focus ST amounts to a chocolate dipped piece of feces. Deep down it's still crap no matter how you doll it up. And given Ford's previous track record with the SVT Focus doesn't make me change my mind with the ST.
In reply to Javelin:
There's also a $2300 option, as well.
But they are options, not requirements. And $23.7k is a good comparison to the very basic, un optioned $19.2k SE...
And comparing a totally loaded, custom paint Focus ST to a base GT, which can also be optioned up, well, to each his own.
The point more is that the base Focus Sedan is more than $15k, and the base ST is less than $28k. So.
I still plan to get the Fiesta ST.
I am interested in seeing the Fiesta ST versus the Abarth. Could very well be an option in a couple years when money as freed up enough to buy a new car.
Ranger50 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I thought I remember seeing base S models at 15k, this may have been on a '12 and not a '13 last time I looked, and 28k for the ST was listed above.
Well, I suggest you check again, ford.com has the details. I just looked at them again.
Every and I mean EVERY vehicle on a dealers lot has ADM on it, normally 2k tacked on for absolutely nothing except the "pleasure" of buying from the dealer.
Well, that's the dealers perogivive. And there are ways to get around it. Unlike the SVT, this isn't a limited production car, and the powertrain is far from unique. this is part of the whole local supply and demand thing.
From my cheap seat, a Focus ST amounts to a chocolate dipped piece of feces. Deep down it's still crap no matter how you doll it up. And given Ford's previous track record with the SVT Focus doesn't make me change my mind with the ST.
To each his own, and opinions are like a-holes- every one has one. Thankfully, enough people are giving the car a chance these days.
And just to further clarify since others wanted to twist the conversion around, I SINCERELY HOPE THE FIESTA DOES NOT INCUR THIS STUPIDITY FUTURE OWNERS HAVE TO ENDURE TO GET ONE AND NOT ONE OF THOSE OVERPRICED MODELS EITHER.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Javelin: And comparing a totally loaded, custom paint Focus ST to a base GT, which can also be optioned up, well, to each his own.
But that's what people do! Both cars are $30K. If I had $30K, I'd buy the Mustang GT every time (and twice on Sunday).
But for the record, I like the Focus ST. I've driven one now, and it's a really nice piece of kit. I would be very happy with the "base" version. Except the TCS/"e-diff". That thing is an absolute deal-breaker for someone like me who actually does autocross, HPDE, etc on a regular basis. It was intrusive, twitchy, and generally just not fun. If Ford does a Track Pack (like on the Mustang GT, the Boss 302, and the SHO) with a real diff as a stand-alone option, I'd be in line tomorrow.
As for the Fiesta ST (and the 1.0L Fiesta), I've driven quite a few of the regular Fiesta's, and I like them (just not as much as the Duece). I think an ST Fiesta would be a great alternative to the Abarth (which I love, but just could not justify what with a baby and all), so I'd like to drive that one. I'm nervous on the 1.0L though, as the standard car has power issues...
In reply to Javelin:
And real people are buying ST's. Not everyone wants a Mustang.
(electronics and all)
In reply to alfadriver:
I understand that. But you have to understand that everybody cross-shops a price range, regardless of a vehicle. And if you have a bunch of $29-$30K ST's sitting next to the same price Mustang GT's, it's going to be a tough sell to just about anybody. Ford kinda missed the boat on the option packages on the ST, which is odd because they do such a good job with them on the rest of the line-up.
And on the elctronics, I personally know somebody that sold a new ST 3 months after buying it because of the e-diff. Y'all ain't fooling people who actually use these things on the track...
doc_speeder wrote:Streetwiseguy wrote: A couple of decades ago, a friend and I took a new Suzuki Sprint turbo out for a testdrive. He looked at me, and said, "Squirrels on steroids!" I lol'd.I had a couple friends in HS with those. They were only like 75 hp if I recall correctly. But the tin box structure made them feel pretty quick and they were a lot of fun with the waste gate wired shut! I'm sort of hoping that the Fiesta turbo could be like a 4-dr, modern refined version of one of those...
108 lb/ft of torque did the job.
The E-diff is something hopefully they will change when they see how poorly it performs in those true performance conditions.
I could see quite a few reasons to still take a loaded ford ST over a completely base v8 mustang. For one I don't find the base v8 mustang very appealing without the track pack/brembos/diff/recaros. In fact I would venture that the loaded focus ST might beat said non track pack stock base model GT on the track or autocross course. Of course I think the sweet spot is the middle option which gets recaros but not full leather and ditches things like the sunroof, HID, and NAV/sync
The focus ST is a lot more family friends/baby friendly as you mentioned and would get better mpg than the v8 also
Javelin wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I understand that. But you have to understand that everybody cross-shops a price range, regardless of a vehicle. And if you have a bunch of $29-$30K ST's sitting next to the same price Mustang GT's, it's going to be a tough sell to just about anybody. Ford kinda missed the boat on the option packages on the ST, which is odd because they do such a good job with them on the rest of the line-up.
Based on that logic, if a loaded Fiesta ST costs the same as a base Focus ST, then there's a problem? Sorry, that makes no sense at all, and, thankfully, people who actually buy new cars don't really think that way.
Performance Focus buyers are not all looking for Mustangs, just like performance Fiesta buyers are not all looking for Focuses.
I could get a Focus ST tomorrow, yet I would rather have a Fiesta ST. Even if it options out to $23k.
As for the electronics, I also know people who have them, and actually like them. They are not being fooled, either. Since such a low percentage of drivers go to the track or autocross, well....
alfadriver wrote: Based on that logic, if a loaded Fiesta ST costs the same as a base Focus ST, then there's a problem? Sorry, that makes no sense at all, and, thankfully, people who actually buy new cars don't really think that way.
Thank science you're an engineer and not a marketing/sales person... 
I guess Motor Trend, Autoweek, C&D, R&T, GRM, Edmunds, Consumer Reports, etc, etc, etc are all wrong to compare any two cars on price or any other variable besides being nearly identical in every way... 
Javelin wrote:alfadriver wrote: Based on that logic, if a loaded Fiesta ST costs the same as a base Focus ST, then there's a problem? Sorry, that makes no sense at all, and, thankfully, people who actually buy new cars don't really think that way.Thank science you're an engineer and not a marketing/sales person...
The car mags might make the comparison but I can see alfa's point in the fact the consumer does not share the same mindset. Consumer shopping for a decent mpg 5 dr, is not the same consumer shopping for a v8 mustang regardless of the price. Even if the mustang cost 5k less you would not see people driving off the lot with the mustang over the focus unless performance for dollar was their mindset when they came in.
In reply to Jaynen:
Don't read any of the dozen-plus car mags on sale right now with headlines such as "Best Performance Car for $30K!" then, because they all take all comers, yes even FWD 5-doors to RWD 2-doors. Just sayin'...
And that advertising/journalism fuels the buyer's mindset. People go car shopping with a general knowledge of what they want (even if that, in my neighbor's case, was something as dumb as "purple") and their budget. They generally don't care about class, size, "segment" or any other bull. If a 25 year old is looking for a hot car and can afford $30K, he's going to look at all of them.
Funny, I was looking at the Focus ST myself as a potential car for Janel. Never even crossed my mind to consider a Mustang. I probably still wouldn't.
Did you know you can get a full rally kit for a Fiesta? Check out the R2.
Keith Tanner wrote: Funny, I was looking at the Focus ST myself as a potential car for Janel. Never even crossed my mind to consider a Mustang. I probably still wouldn't.
Be honest on what other cars you are considering though. I wouldn't be surprised if included an AWD one (WRX), a RWD one (FR-S), etc, etc. 
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