Fix autocrossing?

I would like to hear opinions and suggestions regarding the opinions Tim expressed in the current issue as quoted below:

"Autocrossing needs one of two things: either triple the track time or two-thirds less required participation time. People who have spouses and kids and lawns just can't spend a whole day standing around a broiling parking lot to get 90 to 120 seconds of track time.

"While there has been much progress in the past 10 years, the host groups also need to continue welcoming younger enthusiasts with open arms. I'd also find a way to divide the number of classes in half.

"The day's schedule also needs some work. Let the old farts like me run early in the morning so we can go home. Then the kids can run in the afternoon-let them sleep in after being out late the night before.... "

I thought they were very well thought out observations. What he was lacking (and I am too, frankly) are solutions. I do think that if a person or organization solved these issues, they'd really have something. However, I also look back on the past 20 years, and it seems to me that autocrossing is more popular than ever. Am I wrong? If I'm right, then why would it need to be fixed? Still, I am getting older, and I also have some health problems that make it very difficult for me to stand out in the sun all day. Making changes that make it more appealing for different age groups and everyone in general could only help. I don't know what the answer(s) is, but I autocross much less than I used to, and its partially due to the very factors that Tim brought up in his column.

i don't think there is much to be done. i don't view it as any hardship to be there for the whole day for 4-5 runs...i have friends i BS with when i'm not running or working. i watch; i eat lunch. if you don't have anyone to talk to, i can see how it can seem tedious. for me the social aspect is as important as anything else.

sure, every region can probably tighten things up a little, but in the end it's an all-day event.

our region tried a split-session format for a few seasons. it was a hit with casual autoXers but the people who were really involved didn't like it. it was nice for the folks who could show up at 8 and be home by 12:30, but the core group got really burned out b/c they were basically doing twice the work. also, the morning session tended to be much more crowded than the afternoon session, which made things even harder to administer. plus, i went for a whole season without seeing some of my friends who happened to be in the classes that were in the opposite session.

like anything else, autoX isn't for everyone. and there is usually a way to cut down the amount of time you need to be there. sign up to work waivers in the morning before the event starts, then you can leave once your runs are done. sign up to run in a different (earlier) class if your class happens to be running in a late heat. there are multiple ways to work things to accomodate one's schedule, but what i commonly see is someone wanting to run with their class so they can win a trophy, do the work assignment they want, and still be home by noon. that's not always possible, and each person needs to form their own priorities.

if you have kids and a lawn that need tending, maybe those things need to come before your autoX priorities, so maybe you work tech in the morning and then run in whatever first heat class you fit into, and you're home by noon. maybe your Stock car isn't competitive in SM, but again...order your priorities. in essence, this is no different from the ever-present "ban R-compounds" and "I-stock" crusades.

as far as the "old guys" running early and the "kids" running later, it's such a silly generalization that i can only assume he's kidding.

Around here we've got a couple "old guys" that pre-register and pre-tech, and run in the second run group so they can come out after church.

I don't mind dedicating a whole day to an autocross, but I'd never say no to more runs.

What would solve those problems*???

Making autocross a for-profit endeavor. Look at drag racing, dirt track, etc. for examples. The track owner/operator is in it for a profit, often times there is prize money for the competitors, and it is usually spectator-driven. That would free up the entrants from having to stay around for the entire time. Maybe even set it up Pro-Solo style, with heats and/or elimination rounds - if you're out early, go home, but if you're still in, stick around until your next time.

I honestly think it would bring more problems than solutions though.

Note: I don't really know how much of those issues are problems as they are part of the true character of autocross. Seat-time isn't going to be very long on ~60-second courses, but there aren't many other motorsports events with cheaper entry fees either.

i like to think of it as "turns per dollar." in that context, autoX can't be beat.

I don't have a solution to offer but an alternative. Rallycross hits a lot of the same buttons (for me, it's more relaxed and fun than the holy-E36 M3-you-have-the-wrong-shift-knob-you-can't-run-in-stock-you-have-to-run-prepared feel you sometime run into at autocrosses). A lot more "Whoa SLLLLLIP" instead of "Whoa GRRRRRRIP" but I'm typically driving 6-8 full minutes over 6 runs. They're less crowded and they don't have to take the whole day. Typically 30ish but up to 50 people and we are done by 2:30 or 3 at a relaxed pace. That still leaves a lot of time in the day for family and yard work. Especially in the summer when it's light out until 9 pm.

This may sound like heresy, but what I've always envisioned as an ideal event is a time-trial style event held on an autocross-style venue. For example - instead of three or four short timed runs, each driver might be allowed allowed two runs of 3-5 hot laps (each lap ~45 seconds) on a coned and chalk-lined parking lot course. More seat time, more adrenaline.

I also don't mind spending most of the day at an event for five runs... Usually when I'm not driving or marshalling, I'm going for ride-alongs, shooting the crap with my friends, checking out (or making fun of as necessary) people's cars, etc. It's like going to a meetup, except you all get to be the numpty who goes leaving rubber all over the parking lot, and the cops don't come.

What I think the sport needs is less politics, WAAAAY less classes (and a lot looser classing too), and less self-importance. The attitude that autocrossing is only "the first proving ground for professional racing" (and therefore only deserves any respect in that context) needs to go away. I have absolutely no desire to "step up" to a "serious racing career", I just want to go play in a parking lot.

Regarding classing, I've seen too many casual "car people" bring out cars with, say, turbo kits or adjustable coilovers and then get classed into oblivion where they get to run against built race cars with their 50 lb sound systems and street tyres. A lot of the time they don't come back. I think the stock/modified distinction should be done away with entirely. There are some very good stock cars out there and some very bad ones, and just because one is "modified" doesn't mean it's more competitive. Instead I'd say base classes on power-to-weight and the level of actual racing prep that's been done, i.e. things like cages, Kirkley seats, gutted interiors, etc. Let the really serious competitors have a decent field to play in, and the people who just run their street car for fun have some chance of not getting slaughtered...

Disclamer: I haven't read the article, as my copy hasn't arrived yet. I used to run in a small and quite friendly Ontario club which didn't seem to have the attitude of the SCCA that you guys have to put up with. Actually the guys I used to run with were all good friends even though we only saw each other for a couple weekends a month. There are some really good racers in that club and some really competitive people, but there was never this overbearing attitude of "if you aren't here to win you shouldn't be here at all" that I sometimes see online... I also haven't done an event since I moved overseas so what do I know?

Disclamer 2: my 170 hp, 2200 lb FWD daily driver isn't even eligible for stock class under SCCA or most Canadian rulebooks that I know of, and typically goes straight to something like A/SS or A/SP, which is why I think the people who made up these classings were on copious amounts of cocaine. Sheesh...

There are alternatives out there, if you look.

Say, for instance, AROC Detroit. :)

We have about 6-10 core members that help put on an event, and instead of forcing people to work, we get just enough by giving free fun runs. As a results, we get our 30 or so volunteers so the rest 30-50 don't. And that lets us keep registration open until 1pm, if you have a morning comflict.

Wanna show up, pay your money, run 4-5 times, and leave? Sure- we are happy to take your money. Wanna show up at 9am before we do, stay all day, work, and take fun rusn? You are welcome, too.

OTOH, our driving time is roughly from 11am to 2-3pm, depending on the number of competitors. 5 runs, 100 driver- ususally just around 3.5 hrs.

Our last event was pretty killer- only 53 drivers showed up, so we ended early- and then gave the workers 5 MORE fun runs. Think about that- 10 runs for a little over an hour of work + your $20 entry fee.

But our events are designed to be fun. Not designed to be 100% fair (no heats- so same classes do not run together, and no forcing of working)- thankfully, our audience is ok with that. And we do get our share of national competitors- but they know it's not a fair comparison.

Better? That's not my call. Different, for sure.

Eric

i went to one last friday night by the peachtree bmw cca that blew me away.

i was in for tech at 4:30 PM when they opened. even with an instructor led course walk and a timing gear glitch, first run group (maybe 15 or 20 cars) was on track at 6:20 or so. i got 6 runs in while group 2 worked the track. our group was done by a about 8 or so then group 2 went on track and group 1 worked. i was pulling out of the lot with my car on the tow bar by 10:30.

i think it can be done in a shorter time than "all day" if it is done well and this group did it VERY well. i will definitely go back!

slipping into flame suit

I've gone and watched some Auto-Xs, never participated, and for many of the reasons Tim mentioned.

Granted, many of you may or may not have access to super cheap track time like we do here in the Tulsa/OKC area.

I can pay $50 for 8 runs at ~45-50seconds each and have to stand around in a burning parking lot all day, or I can pay $100 for a track day with 5-6 15 minute sessions. And between sessions be in the shade, go grab a drink in the Air conditioned tower, etc.

But I'm sure once the new car is back the break-in mark and we get past August I'll go ahead and give it a shot anyway.

z31maniac wrote: I can pay $50 for 8 runs at ~45-50seconds each and have to stand around in a burning parking lot all day, or I can pay $100 for a track day with 5-6 15 minute sessions. And between sessions be in the shade, go grab a drink in the Air conditioned tower, etc.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that $50 is too much for an autocross. Hell, $30 is pushing it.

alfadriver wrote: Our last event was pretty killer- only 53 drivers showed up...

Sure, it's easy to have run great event with 50 drivers. Try doubling or even tripling that entry and it's not nearly as easy. You're limited by safety to have only two cars on course at a time on smaller sites, so each driver consumes 20-30 seconds. Do the math, and you find that you become time-limited pretty quickly. In order to accomplish Tim's split-day concept, you have to have 4 groups, and getting enough course workers out there to cover the site becomes challenging.

Unfortunately, it costs money to run them.

I used to run autocrosses locally. We had a pretty small group, and a dozen runs was normal for a day. We'd run two groups and it worked really well. Our classification was basically the NASA points-based system until I got a phone call from NASA telling me to buzz off. Then we just tossed out classification and guys would see who got faster than last month. Very relaxed, very laid back, very fun.

But that wouldn't scale to the big events.

Run order/method is our clubs perpetual holy war....there are always people who are pushing for changes to get more runs, and there are always people [myself included] who wish they'd leave well enough alone and stop monkeying with things.

In the past we always had a laid back atmosphere. My gripe is that when we try to increase the number of runs, we usually end up rushing around, and my recreational day of autocross starts to feel like work.

If there is a middle ground that allows more runs without more work, please share it....the more details the better. How many drivers do you normally have, what is the club's average monthly income and operating expenses, etc. I'm asking because I think one solution might be to allow those who want to leave early without working to pay more, and those who volunteer to work more to pay less.....that approach needs to be balanced, though, with the financial needs of the club. The cost charged to non-working drivers needs to go up enough to compensate for any reductions.

Alpha Driver: you seem very happy with your setup. I hope you share more details about how this affects your club's ability to pay the bills.

Coming out of oblivion to comment.

Buzz Killington wrote: i don't think there is much to be done. i don't view it as any hardship to be there for the whole day for 4-5 runs...i have friends i BS with when i'm not running or working. i watch; i eat lunch. if you don't have anyone to talk to, i can see how it can seem tedious. for me the social aspect is as important as anything else.

When I was in my 20's I used to think that way too. Now in my 40's with kids, house etc, I'm right with Tim's comments and will spend my $$'s with an organization that allows that rather than one (SCCA) that doesn’t. For me to spend a whole day away from my family I'm looking for over an hour of track time at HPDE's I am tempted my the Michigan R.O.C. concept, but I don't want to do that in my DD. Once I have a 'beater' toy again I'll probably do some of those events instead.

Buzz Killington wrote: if you have kids and a lawn that need tending, maybe those things need to come before your autoX priorities

Yup, they do which is why I only autocross 2-4 times a year. Thankfully I have options that allow me to do that.

alfadriver wrote: There are alternatives out there, if you look. Say, for instance, AROC Detroit. :)

Any of the DSCC (Detroit Region of Sports Car Club's inc AROC, MSCC and CMM etc

alfadriver wrote: instead of forcing people to work, we get just enough by giving free fun runs. As a results, we get our 30 or so volunteers so the rest 30-50 don't. And that lets us keep registration open until 1pm, if you have a morning comflict. Wanna show up, pay your money, run 4-5 times, and leave? Sure- we are happy to take your money. Wanna show up at 9am before we do, stay all day, work, and take fun rusn? You are welcome, too. OTOH, our driving time is roughly from 11am to 2-3pm, depending on the number of competitors. 5 runs, 100 driver- ususally just around 3.5 hrs.

And for that I'm very grateful. In my 4 events last year I only worked 1, but I didn't claim my fun runs. I worked ran and still left by 1:30pm to spend time with the family.

alfadriver wrote: Better? That's not my call. Different, for sure. Eric

For me better. I'll probably never run another SCCA event again. My only issue with DCSCC's is that we are adding more classes, but that's what certain members want. I love the easy going informal atmosphere with nary a rule book in sight :)

I've only attended one autocross - a PCA event as a guest of my friend. I got 4 runs and worked the course for a couple of hours. I showed up at 8:30 and was home by 3. It was a total blast and now I'm looking for a good EF Civic as a Challenge/autox project.

The key, to me, was that we only had about 60 drivers. Is there any way to cap the number of participants? Heck, why not just have more events? LeMons runs three races at CMP because of high demand.

jstein77 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Our last event was pretty killer- only 53 drivers showed up...

Sure, it's easy to have run great event with 50 drivers. Try doubling or even tripling that entry and it's not nearly as easy. You're limited by safety to have only two cars on course at a time on smaller sites, so each driver consumes 20-30 seconds. Do the math, and you find that you become time-limited pretty quickly. In order to accomplish Tim's split-day concept, you have to have 4 groups, and getting enough course workers out there to cover the site becomes challenging.

Our max has been over 120 drivers. Everyone still got 4 runs, and we were still done early. I DID the math once- we did an event where 600 runs were taken between the main runners and fun runs, and were sitting at home by 5:30pm.

We run 3 worker groups, and change the on the fly- there is NO break at one of our events. Again, we DO get the workers by giving them an incentive to work.

What really bugs me is when people complain about big events. Well, then have small ones.

I've been organizing autocrosses for 15 years now. You have no idea what challenging is when your club only has 6-10 people who come out. I HAVE to rely on people who are NOT a part of my club to make the event work. And I fully know that it's THEM that makes our events great, not me, and not my club.

Eric AROC Detroit.

^Around here it's due to a serious lack of appropriate places to hold an event. Or rather places with owners sympathetic to the cause, at least that's what I've gathered from our local board.

It sounds a bit obvious, but a lot of the seat-time vs. sunburn-time problem comes down to the physical size of the venue rather than heat organization.

I run with 2 groups: the local SCCA chapter as a guest and a local sports car club as a member. The SCCA region has access to some big open lots, while the local guys only have 2 smallish places to run.

At the last SCCA event, the course was big, fast, and open - we could launch a 3rd car while the 2nd was approaching the halfway point and the 1st was in the home stretch. There were a LOT of cars attending - over 100. On a 35-second lap, we got 6 official runs each and 5 more fun runs for cleanup volunteers, so I got in 11 passes and was on the way home by 5:30 or so.

With the locals, it's pretty much 1 car at a time on course because we do multiple laps in the small lots. 60 cars takes the same amount of elapsed time but we typically only get 4 official runs and maybe 2 fun runs after.

I too would prefer to get into HPDE track days for the loads of seat time, but I'm just not willing to use my daily for that and budget/space don't permit a disposable track toy just yet.

JoeyM wrote: Run order/method is our clubs perpetual holy war....there are always people who are pushing for changes to get more runs, and there are always people [myself included] who wish they'd leave well enough alone and stop monkeying with things. In the past we always had a laid back atmosphere. My gripe is that when we try to increase the number of runs, we usually end up rushing around, and my recreational day of autocross starts to feel like work. If there is a middle ground that allows more runs without more work, please share it....the more details the better. How many drivers do you normally have, what is the club's average monthly income and operating expenses, etc. I'm asking because I think one solution might be to allow those who want to leave early without working to pay more, and those who volunteer to work more to pay less.....that approach needs to be balanced, though, with the financial needs of the club. The cost charged to non-working drivers needs to go up enough to compensate for any reductions. Alpha Driver: you seem very happy with your setup. I hope you share more details about how this affects your club's ability to pay the bills.

About costs- what we pay for is the lot and the insurance rider- that's it. Our club doesn't really have operating expenses. The only other thing we pay for is donations to local charities and subsidizing the holiday dinner.

All of our events try to pay for themselves- track events are designed to break even, autocrosses normally bring in money (depending on the lot), and monthly web costs are lost in the autocross income.

How we run does not impact our club financially. It does impact us emotionally, so that we all want to keep doing it. If I had to run 200 driver events 4 times a year, I would pass- I'm far happier with 50 drivers, and am ok with 80.

I do this for FUN. And I'm fighting burnout. So if we keep at 50-60 drivers, I'll be super happy.

As for lot size- we do ok- our normal courses run 40 seconds on average. But we put necessary loops in early, and typically have 3 cars on the course (ever so briefly) at once.

If people who run with us have a gripe, I listen. But I always explain why it may be otherwise (our biggest gripe is that you can't be WOT through the finish area- which is 100000% intentional).

I got the magazine but have not read that article yet.

To me autocross is as low tech as possible. I had a good time when I have done it, but I would do it more if I could either get more runs or do it without blowing a whole day.

Question – Why do similar cars have to race at the same time if you are racing the clock? Why stage all the same class cars at the same time? Unless weather is changing there isn’t any difference if you run 1 min apart or 30 mins apart. And unlike roadracing, you don’t need to separate based on car classing or expert / novice.

Why not line up line a drag race fun run day. Get in line and run. The more you get in line, the more you run, For scoring, just use the first 3 or take 3 random runs if someone does 10 or15 in one day.

Why not replace the cone herders so you don’t need a bunch of people to make a run. Road racing needs corner workers for safety because there are other cars coming close by, but you don’t see drag racing line competitors down the quarter mile. How hard and expensive could it be to make a cone that doesn’t move or fall over when you hit it? Make it have a flashing LED light on the top so if it gets bumped too hard the race control can see it an dock your time. Or better yet, put a cheap transmitter in it to automatically talk to the timing computer.

Or better, get rid of the cones. Road construction sometimes uses yellow “tape” that looks like painted lines to temporarily adjust traffic patterns. Make that with a wire in it like a the invisible fence use and put a transmitter on the car like a dog wears that records if you go over the lines. You would only need a few transmitters – have someone at the start line pass them out and someone at the finish line collect and record the run. It would have the advantage of not being so intimidating for new drivers because it is like a road course and less geeky for the rest of us when we explain what we do on the weekends to non car people.

Sure, that is more expensive then having a bunch of cones, but if you got more people doing it more often you could afford them. If the course owner allowed the tape to remain in place, it would take no time to get the course set up so you could run weeknights after work and still make it home for dinner with the family. I know autocross nerds like to have a new course every time the sun rises, but I think that their skill advantage would shrink very quickly if people were able to learn the course over a few visits.

Rusnak_322 wrote: I got the magazine but have not read that article yet. To me autocross is as low tech as possible. I had a good time when I have done it, but I would do it more if I could either get more runs or do it without blowing a whole day. Question – Why do similar cars have to race at the same time if you are racing the clock? Why stage all the same class cars at the same time? Unless weather is changing there isn’t any difference if you run 1 min apart or 30 mins apart. And unlike roadracing, you don’t need to separate based on car classing or expert / novice.

There are clubs that do that.

As for the rest- well, that's technology that we can't afford. Or want to spend time developing.

And corner workers are out there for safety, too. It's why they have red flags + fire extinguishers. Just sayin.

E-