Fix autocrossing?

z31maniac wrote: ^Around here it's due to a serious lack of appropriate places to hold an event. Or rather places with owners sympathetic to the cause, at least that's what I've gathered from our local board.

That is the way it is around here. There isn't anywhere to run. All the places with a lot big enough are open 24/7. Most of the available "industrial" parking lots are sized for just the "10 employees" working there, isn't paved, or the lot is narrow and very long or "landscaped to death". Tough having a parking lot in between two mountains.

I also have a problem with the strict rules classifications. I love running, what would be classified as a "mini truck", on the street and would love to see how really slow it is compared to something else. But right now with the mods I have done to it, 2" lowering, no cat, different sized tires, etc, I fall way out of "stock" class and fall into a class of nowhere to run. Why isn't there an "open" catch-all class for someone like me? I just want to run, get my monies worth of runs, and not be classified to death; trophy or not.

Brian

interesting...people seem to be talking about getting done at 5:30 as if that's not "the whole day." our region runs ~150 cars (600 total runs) and if we're not handing out trophies or driving home by 5:30, then something went wrong. with under 100 cars, we've been done by 3pm sometimes.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Coming out of oblivion to comment.

Buzz Killington wrote: i don't think there is much to be done. i don't view it as any hardship to be there for the whole day for 4-5 runs...i have friends i BS with when i'm not running or working. i watch; i eat lunch. if you don't have anyone to talk to, i can see how it can seem tedious. for me the social aspect is as important as anything else.

When I was in my 20's I used to think that way too. Now in my 40's with kids, house etc, I'm right with Tim's comments and will spend my $$'s with an organization that allows that rather than one (SCCA) that doesn’t. For me to spend a whole day away from my family I'm looking for over an hour of track time at HPDE's I am tempted my the Michigan R.O.C. concept, but I don't want to do that in my DD. Once I have a 'beater' toy again I'll probably do some of those events instead.

Buzz Killington wrote: if you have kids and a lawn that need tending, maybe those things need to come before your autoX priorities

Yup, they do which is why I only autocross 2-4 times a year. Thankfully I have options that allow me to do that.

and that is the right approach (not in my 20s BTW, but still no kids, although 60-hour work weeks are common). you're making the choices you need to make based on your situation, and not expecting everyone else (who themselves have all sorts of different priorities) to accomodate your needs.

i understand how Tim feels, but the reality is that not everyone has time in their lives to run at every event. i don't have kids, and i have to skip or duck out early sometimes as well. there are ways to fit it in, but it might take some sacrifices (e.g. working waivers at 7am and running out of your normal class so you can leave early). there is almost always plenty of opportunity to be out of a large (150+ drivers) event by 11:30am.

Ranger50 wrote:

z31maniac wrote: ^Around here it's due to a serious lack of appropriate places to hold an event. Or rather places with owners sympathetic to the cause, at least that's what I've gathered from our local board.

That is the way it is around here. There isn't anywhere to run. All the places with a lot big enough are open 24/7. Most of the available "industrial" parking lots are sized for just the "10 employees" working there, isn't paved, or the lot is narrow and very long or "landscaped to death". Tough having a parking lot in between two mountains. I also have a problem with the strict rules classifications. I love running, what would be classified as a "mini truck", on the street and would love to see how really slow it is compared to something else. But right now with the mods I have done to it, 2" lowering, no cat, different sized tires, etc, I fall way out of "stock" class and fall into a class of nowhere to run. Why isn't there an "open" catch-all class for someone like me? I just want to run, get my monies worth of runs, and not be classified to death; trophy or not. Brian

Sign up for any class and then just accept it when you are protested / disqualified.

BTW, I love the DCSCC events! The classes are manageable, the people are friendly and fun runs rock!

That's all I have to say.

I haven't received my magazine yet, but this is a timely conversation. I've been thinking of getting into autox off and on for the last 7 years. It's cheaper than track days, has a competitive element, etc. The only thing that ever changes my mind is when I attend an event. I usually do one per year, am reminded why I don't like it, and pack it up until I get the itch again.

My introduction to the sport was in 2006 and it went something like this:

Show up early in my car - at that time a 2005 S2000 that I bought used with springs and a KN intake.

Go to register just like a track day, explain that it's my first time and what my car has. Get classed into A (I think) as a novice. I'd read a "beginner's guide to autocrossing" prior to the event, and the classing didn't sound right (I'd squinted at an Excel spreadsheet w/ 6 pt. font for what seemed like hours, thinking to myself "these guys really take this seriously") but I went with it. I told them what the car has on it, and they're the experts.

Pull up to tech and watch as some guy flips out about the springs/filter. At this point I'm in trouble and I have no idea why, but I go back to get put into another class with more letters/consonants. Not sure what it means, but don't care - I just came to drive my car fast around a parking lot.

Get my run/work sheet. My runs are spaced about as far apart as possible - like 9 am and 5 pm. Cool.

After that, everybody went out to walk the course, so I walked around too.

My group comes up and I line up. 3 runs at 35 seconds later, and I'm still not very familiar with the course, I'm just starting to get a feel for the car, and my day's over, unless I want to wait until 5 PM. For 1.5 minutes of driving, that's not likely.

So that was my introduction to the sport. Since then, I've gone 2-3 times, and every time it's the same. By the 3rd run I'm pretty sure I understand the course, but at that point I'm either done for the day or I'm waiting till the afternoon to try again. Maybe it's me, and I'm too dumb to figure out a course full of cones, but it's frustrating and I've never felt like I was actually driving the car...just staring at myriad cones littering a parking lot.

Which is how I end up on track - it's 10x more expensive, but I'm rewarded with 80-90 minutes of time for giving up a day. There are two great costs associated with this hobby - time and money. I don't care if it's free, I can't give up 9 hours of my weekend for 1.5 minutes. I wouldn't do that if I was paid $40. I can, however, a few times a year, scrape up enough cash to do a track day...and I generally end the day happy, satisfied, and looking forward to the next.

Ditto the above. Also - for a novice there is nothing more frustrating than somehow DNF-ing each of your three runs because you missed a gate somewhere in the great sea of cones. Chalking the course boundaries is really helpful, but it's rarely done.

Rusnak_322 wrote: Sign up for any class and then just accept it when you are protested / disqualified.

When I have to travel 3hrs to attend..... [Homey D. Clown] I don't think so. [/Homey D. Clown]

In reply to speedblind:

Same here. While autocross is cheap (or, used to be cheap anyway), a lot of people take it VERY seriously and it's mostly just standing around in the sun all day.

I fixed all the problems I had with autocross by going to HPDE and similar events. Yeah, it's $300 for the weekend but you get instruction should you need it, 90+ minutes of real track time, and you don't have to work.

I autocrossed frequently for 3 years.

• I began with Capital Driving Club - they used an improvement index deal where previous performance drove the multiplier for your latest time. They run a split day, 3 runs morning, 3 afternoon - 4 run groups each divided into A and B halves. The option is that if you need to split early you can run morning-only in which case you get 4 runs.

• An autocross addicted friend convinced me that moving to SCCA STU class would be awesome, so I spent a bajillion bucks to make my nice, clean original e36 M3 into a less comfortable car. One day as I was pulling out of the stop garage after what I'd thought was a pretty solid run I heard the announcer saying "...bringing a spork to a gunfight , comes in with a 58.3, good for 5th place..." Ouch. I was classed w/ Evos, Stis, e46 M3s, rocket sleds....

The Washington DC region SCCA has a very active autocross program. They run at FedEx field and frequently set courses longer than 60 seconds. The downside is that the turnout is capped at about 200 cars, and they hit the cutoff often.

It's a split day - usually 3 run groups morning and afternoon. I've had days where my endless work assignment was 300' from anyone, and I remembered to bring my pyrometer so I could document that the surface I was standing on was hotter than a fresh Starbucks latte.

Ultimately, the lure of 1run to learn, 1 run to push, 1 to try to improve, and 1 to either "win it or bin it" or simply get a time if everything had gone to sh1t - wore off.

While my car is not competitive in SCCA autocross, it crushes at track days. So I do that. Yes, it's a huge freakin' capital outlay, but at the same time - I've never gotten a point by from a well driven car w/ 200hp more than me at an autocross. And assuming I'd do 10 autocross events a year - I got 6 years worth of autocross seat time in 2 days at NJMP a couple weeks ago.

If you could lose some of the byzantine rule structure and the standing around for 5-1/2 hours for 4 minutes of seat time I might come back. Ostensibly that's partly why I got a Miata recently, but the satisfaction I get from stringing together a half hour of good laps just isn't there for me.

skruffy wrote: I fixed all the problems I had with autocross by going to HPDE and similar events. Yeah, it's $300 for the weekend but you get instruction should you need it, 90+ minutes of real track time, and you don't have to work.

and zero competition.

seriously though, every group of autoXers is different. we have a ton of friendly people (even--or especially--those people who are very serious about the sport) more than happy to jump into your car (driving or riding along) or give you a ride in their car. we have a novice class so new folks can compete against people with similar experience levels. we have a novice information tent and a novice course walk dedicated to ensuring that novices feel comfortable. if you don't like running with one group of autocrossers, find another.

In reply to nderwater:

Again, there are alternatives- our off course penalty is 5 seconds per missed gate. So even if go from start to finish, you'll get a time + 500 seconds.

I like track days, too- and do both. But having my car catch on fire the last open track day makes me really think. And now I have a real track car.

To me, they are both worthy alternatives, since I get to control how the event is run.

BTW, change is very possible. Just get enough people to volunteer to run an event. Even using SCCA sanctioning, I'm sure you can alter the rules for one event.

Eric

like anything else, autoX isn't for everyone. and there is usually a way to cut down the amount of time you need to be there. sign up to work waivers in the morning before the event starts, then you can leave once your runs are done. sign up to run in a different (earlier) class if your class happens to be running in a late heat. there are multiple ways to work things to accomodate one's schedule, but what i commonly see is someone wanting to run with their class so they can win a trophy, do the work assignment they want, and still be home by noon. that's not always possible, and each person needs to form their own priorities.

Lots and lots of troof here. I've had my own ideas on how to make things "better," but all of them cost money, and if you think people are bitchy about $25-$35 for "5 minutes of seat time," they're not going to be any happier with $50 for 10 minutes of seat time.

Thoughts that I won't go into great detail on. Do the math/legistics yourself (sorry, but I have turned 180 degrees into that guy who's not really interested in getting up at 0' dark thirty, baking in the sun for 8 hours, running for a couple minutes, going home exhausted and worthless, then getting up and going to work the next morning:)

Permanent site acquisition.

More venues/events/regions (we've, at times, had 200 plus entrants as "the norm" in Atlanta region.)

More AFFORDABLE "driver development" type events (novice schools, whatever,) that don't cost $300+, and aren't really just an excuse for the "veterans" to get 20 fun runs in the afternoon the day before a points event. You know who you are.

Paid "day laborers" to shag cones. Seriously. Doctors, lawyers, and businessmen show up to these things. It doesn't take a rocket-surgeon to pick up the cone and put it back in the box.

The one thing I would absolutely do first thing if I was in charge of any region: Get together with the parents of the junior karters and:

Junior Karts either run FIRST THING IN THE MORNING or AT THE END OF THE DAY, and the PARENTS work the course. I understand the importance and awesomeness of junior karts. What I don't understand is screwing your corner workers/drivers, by making them work the longest heat of the day (whichever one includes the junior karts,) that requires the most hustling to grab cones, and more often than not, pushing a kart 100 yards back to grid to have some snotty parent ask you "WHAT HAPPENED!?"

I think the "arrive and drive" thing is great in theory, but tough in practice. You're always going to have two types of people: Those who are out there to learn/have fun, and those who are out there to win. When you start saying "run when you want," get ready for fights to break out over who had the better weather, course conditions, warm tires, etc.

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