It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers.
It's a super weird thing to require.
It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers.
It's a super weird thing to require.
SV reX said:It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers.
It's a super weird thing to require.
Is it going to end up "dating" the houses, like all of the 80s houses that have phone jacks everywhere and the 90s houses that have a coax outlet in each room and all the 00s houses with miles of Ethernet cable in the walls? 
Yeah, I was pretty surprised, too. This was in Texas, FWIW, so I have no idea what the details are. I suspect the code stemmed not from an "EV adoption is great" viewpoint, but instead from a "charging an EV with an extension cord strung across the garage is a fire risk" viewpoint.
I'd support a bill to require welding outlets in every residential garage, though. It would make dragging home used machine tools waaaay easier for the average person. #Priorities
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:SV reX said:It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers.
It's a super weird thing to require.
Is it going to end up "dating" the houses, like all of the 80s houses that have phone jacks everywhere and the 90s houses that have a coax outlet in each room and all the 00s houses with miles of Ethernet cable in the walls?
Shhhhh the normals are putting outlets in their garages for welding. Just let it happen.
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:"It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers."
And handicap ramps with a 1:12 ratio on the front and back entrances too. We all need that.
You laugh, the handicap ramp on my house made moving in SO MUCH EASIER. Replacing appliances has been a breeze as well. No screwing around with steps or vertical lifts, just roll from the truck to the house. I need to replace the deck this year, and I'm keeping that ramp.
Tom Suddard said:Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:SV reX said:It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers.
It's a super weird thing to require.
Is it going to end up "dating" the houses, like all of the 80s houses that have phone jacks everywhere and the 90s houses that have a coax outlet in each room and all the 00s houses with miles of Ethernet cable in the walls?
Shhhhh the normals are putting outlets in their garages for welding. Just let it happen.
70s houses all had at least one bathroom where the tile, toilet, sink, and tub were all the same matching shade of avocado, lavender, or mauve.
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:"It's nice that some municipalities are requiring high amp garage outlets, but I'd rather see them prioritize accessible bathrooms and grab bars in showers."
And handicap ramps with a 1:12 ratio on the front and back entrances too. We all need that.
I agree. I could make a long list.
There are literally no residential code considerations for handicapped accessibility or elderly safety. Any one of us could suddenly need these things tomorrow.
Meanwhile, the politicos think everyone should subsidize EV ownership (including poor and people on fixed incomes).
EV outlets are an easy add-on that any developer can offer their customers, and list people who can afford an EV can afford an extra outlet in their new house.
When my stepdad had a stroke, it was a disaster trying to retrofit the house to be accessible. Doors too narrow, bathrooms too small, steps, narrow halls, etc.
That was 30 years ago. Not a single thing has improved in the residential code.
But we will all have EV outlets for EVs that most people won't have. 
Tom Suddard said:I bought my level 2 charger for $250, open box but never installed or anything. I installed it myself for free, but if I had to buy the wire and conduit, figure another $100 in materials on top of that. Most people aren't going to do their own household wiring, but it doesn't have to be crazy expensive. Back when I had my Leaf, I built my EVSE from a kit I found online, and it worked great for nearly four years.
Interestingly, I was visiting a friend with my truck who mentioned he had an EV outlet in the garage. He's never owned an EV and doesn't have any plans to, but he said that code required a suitable outlet for charging in all new construction homes in his city. I plugged my truck's EVSE right into the outlet and charged up overnight.
I went ahead and had the wiring installed in my garage when I built it so am a ready for it.
Now if only someone built an EV that I liked driving.
Tom1200 said:In reply to Chris_V :
....The one big elephant in the room is the subsidies; As the market share grows the subsidies are going to go away. To quote something I've heard often. "If someone wants an EV that's great but I shouldn't have to help pay for it"......this sentiment will grow as the market share grows.them.
That is something I have always been surprised was not made a much bigger deal of. With all the "wealth inequality" and "eat the rich" attitude that seems to fly around, electric cars historically (changing a bit recently) have been a rather large money handout to the wealthy, both in terms of rebates and not paying road taxes (and throw in some free charging options, such as some workplaces). Adding in the home charging issues only makes it more "un-equitable", yet no real outrage that I have noticed...
Well, this interestingly popped up on my news feed today:
https://www.thecentersquare.com/illinois/article_1f64ffc2-9df9-11ee-bc5d-436a5b2b718b.html
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
Link above: https://www.thecentersquare.com/illinois/article_1f64ffc2-9df9-11ee-bc5d-436a5b2b718b.html
(Nothing is free. So.... higher rents?)
In reply to aircooled :
Trending articles from the above link. Could there be a correlation?
Landlords required to build EV chargers at renters' request with new Illinois law
Illinois continues population decline, losing 364K in 3 years
Decade of decline in population has Illinois legislators looking for change
Add to this, this is one of the reasons why I'm no longer a landlord. I used to rent a nice house at a reasonable price but due to the ridiculous rental laws, that house is now owned by a company and rents for twice the amount. I'm super happy I wasn't a landlord during covid. That would have been a disaster.
I find it amusing how many people (not you) complain about rent pricing but approve of this kind of legislation. Maybe the change they should be looking for is reducing the cost of things instead of driving prices even higher.
Yeah, though it looks like all that is required by the law is conduit from the panel to the parking area.
Cook county requires metal conduit for all electrical lines already, so probably it's one of those changes that goes on a resume but doesn't actually change much.
If you've got a garage door opener or a light bulb in the garage, you've already got conduit from the house panel to the parking area, and therefore meet the requirement.
Chris_V said:Ahh, spreadsheets using flawed numbers are my favorite type of anti-EV posting.
Im just sitting here waiting for data that disproves the provided calculations, but I am guessing that the accusations of flawed numbers were baseless once the appropriate research was done. Like my old CFO used to say, "Figures never lie, but liars always figure"
In reply to Tom Suddard :
When I bought my house I had to upgrade and replace my panel, so I had the electricians toss in a welder plug for an EV. Dudes there told me about a development nearby in Omaha where the company ran such poor service to each house that they each could barely manage running AC And a dryer in summertime- in their exprience, most EV adoption for home use will depend entirely on if the person cheaped out when building their house.
I'd support that "welding plug in every garage!" bit too; imagine all the people that now can have a second set of washer/dryers available! It sounds nuts until you have kids (I dont)!
In reply to aircooled :
That is something I have always been surprised was not made a much bigger deal of. With all the "wealth inequality" and "eat the rich" attitude that seems to fly around, electric cars historically (changing a bit recently) have been a rather large money handout to the wealthy, both in terms of rebates and not paying road taxes (and throw in some free charging options, such as some workplaces). Adding in the home charging issues only makes it more "un-equitable", yet no real outrage that I have noticed...
It's actually a major issue in liberal/leftist spaces, and why they are leaning so hard into walkable cities, public transport and proper city planning- EVs are very much a middle class to rich person's extravagance, while those systematic changes will have even better impacts on the environment while also helping literally everyone and being cheaper long term. I actually got a little flak from a few when I revealed what I bought, but I also laughed at them because they had no issue with my EVO that got 16 miles a gallon on premium lol
Plus, these mandated EV plugs can literally be the 14-50 NEMA depending on how it's written.
Yeah, my friend's EV code requirement was solved by a few feet of wiring and a NEMA 14-50. Probably a $50 expense.
GIRTHQUAKE said:Plus, these mandated EV plugs can literally be the 14-50 NEMA depending on how it's written.
Important note regarding the above article though: They are not mandating plugs. They are asking landlords to be able to install them if tenants request them. I.E. have the infrastructure in the building/complex for doing so (conduit as Robbie said).
Several times I've been involved in car decisions for someone who lives in an apartment and an EV would be absolutely the perfect choice for them... if they had a place to charge.
I currently rent. EV isn't at the top of my list, but I would certainly consider one if I had a place to charge one.
I don't know that mandating chargers or infrastructure for them is the solution I prefer, but if municipalities want to speed up adoption, its an effective, inexpensive lever to pull.
You guys are funny, how you vastly underestimate the cost of electrical work. It's like saying "rod bearings are not very expensive, replacing them shouldn't cost much."
I didn't see the actual bill referenced earlier, I hope It's a lot more clear than the reporting of it. Was that for new construction only? If so, single family wouldn't be too bad. Multi family you add significant cost to provide enough power to each space. To retrofit existing could be incredibly expensive. Single family- depends on what kind of extra capacity is available. Multi family could be incredibly expensive. Even token, largely useless level 1 120v charging could require extensive work. Unless you just want to pop the breaker any time more than one car plugs in, the complete electrical needs to be redone. Just because there is light, doesn't mean the wire is large enough to support charging a car. And larger wire requires larger conduit. Which is usually run underground, so trenching is required. So even the cheapest solution- level 1 120v- would require a dedicated receptacle and breaker for each parking space, a sub panel near the parking spaces, larger wire and conduit feeding the sub panel, and trenching the parking lot. Then you need to feed that with a larger breaker in the main switchgear. Which it likely does not have the capacity for, requiring a service upgrade. Or, they could install a load managing panel, but then most cars plugged in won't get charged. Depending on how it's written, they may be able to follow the letter of the law while completely avoiding the spirit, just wasting everyone's time and money.
The strictest areas of the country when it comes to energy code- parts of the CA Bay Area- don't go anywhere near that far. They have requirements for new construction only, and nothing that I'm aware of that has a requirement for every space. There are some percentage requirements for level 2, some for level 1, and some for provisions for future use. Some areas also require battery storage to help stabilize the grid in some large parking lots. There are incentives for adding EV charging to existing multi family, but no mandates that I'm aware of.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
It only applies to new construction or properties being renovated after the date the law is enacted
"Creates the Electric Vehicle Charging Act. Provides that the Act applies to new single-family homes and newly constructed or renovated multi-unit residential buildings that have parking spaces and are constructed or renovated after the effective date of the Act."
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
I did search Google and found the bill and read it (I do live in IL so it has the potential to impact me more than others). And yes the article might be more confusing than the actual legal language.
It is very light on any "specs", which I suspect is on purpose. It looks like they had specs in there like level 1 level 2 etc but have mostly ripped out that type of language. While those specs might make sense now, there's a strong chance anything you try to spec now will be not very useful in 5-10 years because of the rate of change of the tech.
I stand by my assertion that I think if there is "a" conduit to the parking space, the landlord is good. I am familiar with how more current requires bigger wires and bigger wires require bigger conduit. I do not think electrical work (even just materials) is cheap.
c'mon man, give me some credit here. I'm a grmer after all, I probably am significantly less sound of mind than the average bear.
Boost_Crazy said:I didn't see the actual bill referenced earlier, I hope It's a lot more clear than the reporting of it. Was that for new construction only? If so, single family wouldn't be too bad. Multi family you add significant cost to provide enough power to each space. To retrofit existing could be incredibly expensive. Single family- depends on what kind of extra capacity is available. Multi family could be incredibly expensive. Even token, largely useless level 1 120v charging could require extensive work. Unless you just want to pop the breaker any time more than one car plugs in, the complete electrical needs to be redone. Just because there is light, doesn't mean the wire is large enough to support charging a car. And larger wire requires larger conduit. Which is usually run underground, so trenching is required. So even the cheapest solution- level 1 120v- would require a dedicated receptacle and breaker for each parking space, a sub panel near the parking spaces, larger wire and conduit feeding the sub panel, and trenching the parking lot. Then you need to feed that with a larger breaker in the main switchgear. Which it likely does not have the capacity for, requiring a service upgrade. Or, they could install a load managing panel, but then most cars plugged in won't get charged. Depending on how it's written, they may be able to follow the letter of the law while completely avoiding the spirit, just wasting everyone's time and money.
This is a really good point that rarely comes up in the ZOMG Everyone Needs an EV discussion. Hertz actually found out about it the hard way when they got a lot of Teslas for their rental fleets. Come to find out no one wanted to rent a car that couldn't be guaranteed to be full when they picked it up and they didn't own the parking structures where the cars were parked so no way to get a whole pile of electricity run out to the parking structures. They could take the cars to their off-site locations but then the cars would have to sit there, plus they still needed to spend all the bucks to get power and chargers installed.
Coupling the added infrastructure cost of adding the additional feeders plus the lack of ability to do a wipe-down and send it back out, or a 10 minute run to the gas pumps and send it back out, Hertz dumped a ton of their EV fleets at pennies on the dollar.
Imagine you are building a luxury condo with say 20 units with 20 dedicated parking spots. Every one has to have the capability for Level II EV charging. So now you need to bring in an additional 1000A of 240V to support this. Laws of probabilities state that not everyone will be charging at the same time, but as those Tesla owners roll in at 5PM and plug them in, that is gonna hit your building pretty hard.
Why is 120v (level 1) largely useless? It will still provide 30-60 miles a day of range when plugged in for 10 hours at night.
Building codes can be confusing to people who don't work with them every day.
There is no such thing as "local codes", or even "state codes". Governments don't write building codes. The way it works is the International Code Congress (ICC) writes the codes, then the states or local municipalities decide to adopt them (or not). Sometimes locals will add amendments. These are effectively "local codes" (semantics), but they are technically National codes with local amendments. Every set of plans says on the first page what sets of codes and years will be required to adhere to.
The ICC reviews and updates codes every 3 years. Then local municipalities decide to adopt them (or not). There are many places where we are still using the 2018 codes (and a few where we are still using 2015). It's common for municipalities to adopt codes at different times. So, we may be building from the 2021 Electrical code and the 2018 Mechanical code in the same town, while the town next door is still using the 2015 for both.
The recommendations from the ICC regarding EV charging were for the 2021 Energy code, the International Energy Conservation Code (IECC), but they were NOT written into the code. Changes will likely show up in the 2024 IECC. This is NOT the National Electrical Code (NEC). The IECC will require things that effect energy conservation, but the NEC will determine things like conduit sizes (and they CAN'T determine that with knowing the electrical draw of the equipment, distance, etc).
Within the coming guidelines from the IECC will be the requirement to be "EV Ready". This has 3 different levels..
- "EV Capable"- will mean the electric panel will have the capacity, there will be a dedicated circuit, and a conduit. This is what will be most common.
- "EVSE Ready Outlet"- will mean there will be a 240V outlet ready to plug in a level 2 charger.
- "EVSE Installed"- will mean a level 2 charger will be installed. This will probably only happen in places like CA.
Note that nowhere in the IECC will it require capacities for level 2 chargers. The giant loophole in all this mess is that a simple access to a 110V outlet may meet the requirements (as proposed).
All three will happen in different parts of the country, but it's gonna take time to implement. Some places will have it in place within the next 6 months, others will be quite a few years. Some places will adopt the code and never enforce it. It's very likely the load requirements for charging will change much faster than the codes will be upgraded.
The IECC will never be the authority on electrical loads or conduit sizing. That will be the NEC.
Retrofitting existing buildings for EV charging will most likely never be required (although bringing a building up to currently adopted codes will be included in many renovation projects).
If all that is required is a single conduit in a new single family house it's not a big deal. If the combination of the IECC, the NEC, and local amendments gets to the point of requiring "EV Ready" at every parking space in multi family renovations (as suggested in the article), the cost to install could be mind-numbing (even if it's just conduits). Upgrade panels for capacity, dig up parking lots, run conduits, new asphalt... It would make multi family renovations cost prohibitive.
Bottom line... it will never make sense. Ask your local building authorities what will be required locally.
Here's the code requirements for the job I am working on today (a small 5000 SF commercial renovation)
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