In reply to alfadriver :
I personally think what Red Bull has never learned is how to get a second driver that supplies true backup.
In reply to alfadriver :
I personally think what Red Bull has never learned is how to get a second driver that supplies true backup.
Keith Tanner said:The only reason Max was able to hold Lewis behind was because Max was faster through that last sector. Lewis would lose just a tenth or two and fall out of DRS range at the perfect time for Max. And I agree that Lewis was probably playing a long game, his ability to make tires last has given him some real strategic options.
It also seems that the cars can follow much closer without a big drop in performance than was possible in previous years. We've seen it a couple of times this year. And someone needs to tell the commentary team that the whole " the Mercedes only works when it's not following someone" thing is obviously not true anymore.
I'm going to enjoy watching this race again.
"Valteri's Mercedes doesn't work as well when following another car."
accordionfolder said:In reply to alfadriver :
I personally think what Red Bull has never learned is how to get a second driver that supplies true backup.
They had two good drivers several times. The trick is to find someone as fast as
DannyRic who is ok with being the wingman, or have a very clear mandate that as soon as Max or Danny takes the lead, the other is immediately the wingman.
Best o' luck finding that. Sergio is probably the best bet right now. He is reasonably quick, and will likely get better, but I think he has been hanging around long enough to know he has a pretty sweetheart deal right now.
Streetwiseguy said:Keith Tanner said:The only reason Max was able to hold Lewis behind was because Max was faster through that last sector. Lewis would lose just a tenth or two and fall out of DRS range at the perfect time for Max. And I agree that Lewis was probably playing a long game, his ability to make tires last has given him some real strategic options.
It also seems that the cars can follow much closer without a big drop in performance than was possible in previous years. We've seen it a couple of times this year. And someone needs to tell the commentary team that the whole " the Mercedes only works when it's not following someone" thing is obviously not true anymore.
I'm going to enjoy watching this race again.
"Valteri's Mercedes doesn't work as well when following another car."
Ha! Sad but true. And I'm a Bottas fan.
Advan046 said:alfadriver said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Streetwiseguy said:Watching the highlights over again, there is no solution for Red Bull in that race.
The solution would have been for Perez to be close enough behind Hamilton that he couldn't pit without losing a spot to him as well.
Max could have arranged that. He could have used the right parts of the track to keep the field close.
I think that undervalues the speed of the MB and the passing skills of Hamilton. Max was in a defensive drive from the end of lap 1. Sir Hamilton was all over him at various points of the lap such that if Max gave him just a few tenths in the wrong place he would be dusted on the pit straight with DRS. So Max had to hold the track position and just hope that his tire wear was equal or better to Hamilton's. Near the end of the first stint for Max I think Hamilton could tell that, just like he does with Bottas, he had pushed Max to the point that he would have to pit soon and could then focus on either taking a longer first stint or doing hammer time for a lap or two.
Pitting first meant that Max needed to immediately commit on his outlap to pushing to retain the lead after Hamilton pits OR to go at a pace to make it to the end. MB could then react to whichever plan RB chose. Hamilton going long was a good plan given the delay in Max's pitstop. It meant that Hamilton could stay out longer and follow his own pace (bar lapping Mazepin) to stretch his first stint and maybe allow a good run on Max with the mediums.
As it turned out Hamilton just couldn't make a pass work on the second stint but he didn't have to take a big risk as he could just push Max to use up his tires again like in the first stint. And so he did until his second stop leaving plenty of time to run down Max on fresh Mediums. I think about the time that Max would want to pit a second time for the softs, the only tire he had left, he would come out 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton and would have maybe one or too passing attempts available with the softs before they would be done enough to warrant protecting 2nd.
Cool strategy calls on both side.
I don't think Hamilton was so much faster than Max that he could have made that pass- if he could, he would have pretty early on. To make DRS work, you had to be over a second faster a lap. And on full tanks, equal tires, Hamilton was just not that fast. Faster than Max, sure, but not so fast that the needed gap going into the last corner was close enough.
While not nearly as bad as Monaco, don't forget that Ricciardo held off Hamilton when he has major engine problems. Barcelona is a hard track to pass on if the cars are that equal- so I honestly don't think it was that hard to just be slightly slower for Max at the beginning of the race. Slow enough to make sure Hamilton would pit in a bad location. Especially after the pit stops- Hamilton had better tires, and still could not pass. But since Max put them SO far out in front, it was easy to just try to pit a second time. Again. Then the speed differential was easy to make the pass.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
I was thinking mainly of the discussion here saying Red Bull made "bad" strategy calls in the last race, when it seems like to me they don't have any options since it's a one man outfit for all intents and purposes.
accordionfolder said:In reply to Streetwiseguy :
I was thinking mainly of the discussion here saying Red Bull made "bad" strategy calls in the last race, when it seems like to me they don't have any options since it's a one man outfit for all intents and purposes.
Given how many years they have not had a good second driver to run the standard strategies, one would think they would have thought about other options by now.
alfadriver said:Advan046 said:alfadriver said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Streetwiseguy said:Watching the highlights over again, there is no solution for Red Bull in that race.
The solution would have been for Perez to be close enough behind Hamilton that he couldn't pit without losing a spot to him as well.
Max could have arranged that. He could have used the right parts of the track to keep the field close.
I think that undervalues the speed of the MB and the passing skills of Hamilton. Max was in a defensive drive from the end of lap 1. Sir Hamilton was all over him at various points of the lap such that if Max gave him just a few tenths in the wrong place he would be dusted on the pit straight with DRS. So Max had to hold the track position and just hope that his tire wear was equal or better to Hamilton's. Near the end of the first stint for Max I think Hamilton could tell that, just like he does with Bottas, he had pushed Max to the point that he would have to pit soon and could then focus on either taking a longer first stint or doing hammer time for a lap or two.
Pitting first meant that Max needed to immediately commit on his outlap to pushing to retain the lead after Hamilton pits OR to go at a pace to make it to the end. MB could then react to whichever plan RB chose. Hamilton going long was a good plan given the delay in Max's pitstop. It meant that Hamilton could stay out longer and follow his own pace (bar lapping Mazepin) to stretch his first stint and maybe allow a good run on Max with the mediums.
As it turned out Hamilton just couldn't make a pass work on the second stint but he didn't have to take a big risk as he could just push Max to use up his tires again like in the first stint. And so he did until his second stop leaving plenty of time to run down Max on fresh Mediums. I think about the time that Max would want to pit a second time for the softs, the only tire he had left, he would come out 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton and would have maybe one or too passing attempts available with the softs before they would be done enough to warrant protecting 2nd.
Cool strategy calls on both side.
I don't think Hamilton was so much faster than Max that he could have made that pass- if he could, he would have pretty early on. To make DRS work, you had to be over a second faster a lap. And on full tanks, equal tires, Hamilton was just not that fast. Faster than Max, sure, but not so fast that the needed gap going into the last corner was close enough.
While not nearly as bad as Monaco, don't forget that Ricciardo held off Hamilton when he has major engine problems. Barcelona is a hard track to pass on if the cars are that equal- so I honestly don't think it was that hard to just be slightly slower for Max at the beginning of the race. Slow enough to make sure Hamilton would pit in a bad location. Especially after the pit stops- Hamilton had better tires, and still could not pass. But since Max put them SO far out in front, it was easy to just try to pit a second time. Again. Then the speed differential was easy to make the pass.
I get your thought process. I just think based on Hamilton's comments at the end, he was intentionally avoiding going for a pass that would risk Max taking them both out. As that is how Max has raced in the past. He knew he had plan B in the pocket with the extra new mediums so it was not worth making a high risk pass on Max that he may have been able to pull off.
In reply to alfadriver :
Other options in their race this past Sunday?
In reply to accordionfolder :
Yes, other than just running away from the field. So far, that hasn't worked all that well.
When is Dmitry Mazepin going to purchase HAAS team? Is he waiting 2 years after the Russian ban, to rename team Russia? and pair Petrov or Kyvatt with his son.
Is it just me, or do we not really need a big regulation change to make the racing more exciting? We've got two teams that are very closely matched and a couple more that are not too far off. The midfield is a wild scrap and closer to the front than they've been for a while. The aero seems to allow cars to follow close enough lap after lap that DRS actually works reasonably well. Sure, Mercedes and Lewis are still at the top of the board but that's more due to some canny strategy, some luck and a hell of a driver than a dominant machine.
It's good to see that over time things have leveled out and the racing is decent. The cars can follow closer now to an extent but are still dependent on DRS which results in a lot of boring passes that happen in the same way in the same spot on track. That's good for allowing different strategies to work (or not work) and mix things up.
I think F1 is still due for a change though and I'm looking forward to more downforce coming from under the car where it is less likely to be affected by the car in front. If you look back to the last race Lewis in a faster car (at least with him driving) could just hold the gap to under a second, that was great but imagine how much better it would have been if he was a half second off Max all the way around the lap forcing him to take defensive lines and fight for the position but without DRS on the straights. That's the sort of racing I'd like to see.
There's obviously a good chance with new regs that one team strikes gold and has a significant advantage over the others, it may take a couple of years for things to tighten up again but we will see. I am curious to see what the cars actually look like, we've seen predictions from F1 etc. but I'm betting what actually arrives on track is a bit different from the teams.
I posted this earlier - I think the reason Max was able to hold Lewis off was because he was faster through the last sector. We saw it in quali, too. Lewis would get in DRS range for 2/3 of the lap but fall back JUST enough before they got to the critical spot in the track. Both times he managed to break through that, he or Max would pit :) So we never got to see Max trying to hold off Lewis with the DRS advantage. Look back just a couple of years and you'd see Lewis overheating and having to back off by 3-5s to cool the front tires. We have seen no sign of that this year. I'm hoping the regulation change doesn't completely torpoedo this sort of close racing.
Lewis has said that he learned a lot about how Max drives and about the strength of the RB after following him for so close for so long last weekend. I have to say that would probably worry me a bit if I were Max...which could be exactly why Lewis said it :)
It's pretty clear that Max and Lewis are way ahead of the rest of the pack this year. Ridiculously so.
Next up, Monaco. Sigh. I guess you could say it's the one time of year when they give points for qualifying :)
Keith Tanner said:Is it just me, or do we not really need a big regulation change to make the racing more exciting? We've got two teams that are very closely matched and a couple more that are not too far off. The midfield is a wild scrap and closer to the front than they've been for a while. The aero seems to allow cars to follow close enough lap after lap that DRS actually works reasonably well. Sure, Mercedes and Lewis are still at the top of the board but that's more due to some canny strategy, some luck and a hell of a driver than a dominant machine.
Next years cars should be significantly different. I would imagine that might shuffle things some. And the tightening of the financial regs might make it harder to get further ahead.
Which was my point. Do we NEED things to be shuffled? Seems to me the cars are converging on their own. Or will the regulation change just be a repeat of 2014 where one team gets it very right and 9 other teams step on their collective cranks?
The tightening of the financial regs will also make it harder for teams like HAAS. Mercedes has already said that the cost of rebuilding Bottas' car after that big crash a couple of races ago means there are some updates that won't happen. Now imagine how much money HAAS has for developing the car as they have to keep replacing whatever damage Mazepin does each week!
So one thing I've read is that the final chicane at Barcelona is really hard to follow someone through and stay close, if you have a large tire advantage over the person in front it's not a big deal but for a cars a bit closer in speed it was too much (and that was where Max would open the last bit of gap on Lewis). Apparently MotoGP stopped using it a few years ago and apparently F1 will not use it next year either.
I'm still good with the car change for next season and was looking forward to it for 2021 before COVID hit. F1 used to get shaken up every few years by a new development that would force teams to react or be left if the dust but with how tight the regulations are now that just can't happen in a meaningful way. A solid regulation change forces that and with the emphasis being on a car that should be easier to follow and race I hope we are in for a treat. The bonus is that we are getting awesome racing so far this year when it could have easily been Mercedes walking away with it (that can still happen though!).
I'm glad the current engines are sticking around too, I know everyone claims the Mercedes is the best and it likely is but all 4 are pretty close. The technology of them is really cool and the cars are faster for it. Notice how we don't lose drivers as often to a gravel trap anymore? I'm guessing that hybrid drive lets them smoothly pull away rather than trying to feather the clutch on a screaming torqueless V10 while it digs itself in. It's cool some of them have the ability to start themselves as well.
I'm ok with the change, too- much of the reason there's been a closing of the field is because some of the rules that make the cars less possible to pass are getting tightened. And the real logical conclusion of that, where DRS may not be needed, should be the next generation F1 cars.
As for the financial rules- Haas' problems is self inflicted- starting with Rich Energy. Now they can hardly fund a team. They have the exact same limits that Mercedes has, but just can't raise the money.
Saw a headline that I thought was click bait- accusing Red Bull for having a flexible rear wing. Then I found this video from AMRacing- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWUefSl5tI&ab_channel=AMRacingF1
That's a lot of change in the rear wing for the Red Bull....
Hass's budget problems are also driver-inflicted. That was the joke...
The FIA is getting ready to start testing wings.
It does seem that as a set of regulations mature, the teams get closer and closer to each other. I suspect that given enough time with a stable set of regs, there would be 4 or 5 teams winning regularly instead of 2. Having said that, Formula 1's regulations are a mess. They are cumbersome and do not encourage good racing so maybe the 2022 regulations will be better and the cost cap might lead to some parity among teams? I can think of a couple of things to improve the show: Narrower and shorter cars (think 1988 size), spec single plane front wing, maximum 4 mechanics for pit stops, 3 different tire compounds must be used per race, any 4 stroke internal combustion engine configuration (limit size and weight).
trigun7469 said:When is Dmitry Mazepin going to purchase HAAS team? Is he waiting 2 years after the Russian ban, to rename team Russia? and pair Petrov or Kyvatt with his son.
The FIA, FOM and the other teams have to sign off on the sale, and with Haas-Uralkali already cutting it so close with their stupid livery, trying to do the sale now would be inviting unnecessary trouble. The Russian flag ban is for two years and with the new regs coming in, and Haas already having decided to give up on this season last season, there's not really any hurry so long as papa keeps paying junior's bills.
Turkey has been plucked for the schedule 
https://sports.yahoo.com/formula-1-turkish-grand-prix-canceled-due-to-covid-19-133726521.html
Ah, for the good old days when the F1 rules were basically 3.0 liters unsupercharged, 1.5 liters supercharged, minimum weight, no moveable aero, go design something.
In reply to Jim Pettengill :
I think if we still had those rules along with multiple tire manufacturers the drivers insides would have turned to goo quite a few years ago from the crazy g-forces lol.
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