Formula 1-2021 Season

In reply to alfadriver :

Yeah bud, did you read my post ;)

1. Did someone muzzle Horner? It's like a Red Bull PR person has him under lockdown. Not a peep through the entire race, and reasonable words after quali. 

2. Hamilton was having trouble keeping track of the big picture of the race, which is unusual. He was visibly exhausted on the podium. I think being <1s behind another car for the entire race was keeping him fully occupied. But is was fun to watch him be able to just burn tires off one after the other. 

3. The finish with drivers running all over the track was comedy. 

In reply to AaronT :

Missed the damage note. Oops

Amazing that Hamilton went from 30+ points down to 6 points up without ever actually having to outdrive Max head-to-head. All damage to Max's car being the result of interactions with MB cars none-the-less.

Hamilton even looked uncomfortable on the podium for how far that horseshoe was shoved up.....anyways. 

Was still a fun race to watch, just want to see Max and Hamilton face off.

In reply to BrewCity20 :

If you think Hamilton was lucky today, I don't think we were watching the same race. 

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to BrewCity20 :

If you think Hamilton was lucky today, I don't think we were watching the same race. 

No kidding. If he had pitted with the rest of the field, then yes. The race would have been a runaway. 

Other highlights:

Nothing like a good old classic Alonso/Hamilton fight. That was fun to watch.

Vettel gets another good race with a combination of good luck and keeping his nose clean. He seems rejuvenated driving for Aston.

What can you say about Ocon? Hell of a result for a French driver in a French car with a French engine.

Luck is what happens to you that you can't control.

The fact that Lewis was the only driver in the top 6 in points to escape lap 1 unscathed makes him luckiest driver of the day. Ocon, Vettel, Sainz, Lattifi, and Russell also were lucky today.

Lewis chose not to pit off inters so I don't count that as unlucky. Similarly, I do not view Max as unlucky when RBR did not pit first and Ham got the undercut. That's strategy, not luck. 

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to BrewCity20 :

If you think Hamilton was lucky today, I don't think we were watching the same race. 

I guess you will have to let me know what I'm missing here....because from my perspective....

He gained 14 points relative to his biggest rival - taking the lead in the Drivers Championship - because his teammate overcooked a turn and just happened to start a domino effect that ultimately smashed into said rival basically knocking him out of competition. I mean most people were saying that best case scenario for Lewis was that - if Hamilton could get fastest lap and the win - Max and Lewis would go into the Summer break tied.

He also saw his team take the lead in the Constructor's Championship because, wouldn't you know it, that same overcooked turn also happened to knock out the second driver for Red Bull as well - basically nulifying Bottas' screw-up from a points perspective. 

I mean, if that is not lucky I'm not sure what is. 

AaronT said:

Luck is what happens to you that you can't control.

The fact that Lewis was the only driver in the top 6 in points to escape lap 1 unscathed makes him luckiest driver of the day. Ocon, Vettel, Sainz, Lattifi, and Russell also were lucky today.

Lewis chose not to pit off inters so I don't count that as unlucky. Similarly, I do not view Max as unlucky when RBR did not pit first and Ham got the undercut. That's strategy, not luck. 

This. Failing to pit was a mistake on Lewis' part, luck had nothing to do with it.

A cascade of cars smashing into both team's cars due to no fault of their own - is bad luck.

Coming out ahead because of said cascade despite no action taken on your part - is good luck.

Fair definition.

In which case Max is lucky that, for the second time this season, Lewis failed to take full advantage of Max having a problem. In Baku, Max should have lost 18-25 points to his rival but Lewis made a dramatic mistake. Today, he should have lost 25, but again, Lewis whoopsied and had to rely on some really hard work and good strategy to claw back what he did. 

Keith Tanner said:

Fair definition.

In which case Max is lucky that, for the second time this season, Lewis failed to take full advantage of Max having a problem. In Baku, Max should have lost 18-25 points to his rival but Lewis made a dramatic mistake. Today, he should have lost 25, but again, Lewis whoopsied and had to rely on some really hard work and good strategy to claw back what he did. 

Touche - but I think the same definition is applied to both situations. In the end, Max was punished via bad luck (both Baku (tire blowing up due to no fault of his own) and Hungary (discussed above)) and Lewis failed to take advantage due to his own mistakes (Lewis screwed up with Brake magic - on him; Lewis failed to recognize the track had dried - on him). Basically, Max's bad luck could have potentially gifted Lewis +50 points in the championship, but Lewis only got +15 from it.

I will even throw out one more situation - Imola - where Hamilton totally screwed up (on him) and only because of Botta's collision with Russel and the resulting red flag (nothing to do with him) was he able to recover and get 2nd which was probably +15-18 pts in his favor reltative to Max.

I don't bring up Silverstone because I feel that was on Max - he needed to realize that he was in control of the Championship and the only thing he couldn't do was crash out - 2nd was a perfectly fine place to be given the overall situation.

So both are applicable, but in the end I think Max comes out behind by a ton and Lewis can contribute his lead not insignificantly to a bunch of matters falling his way.

The way that you influence ("control" is an overly strong word for much of this) the potential for first lap crashes is by being as far up the grid as you can.  Hamilton escaped the chaos because he was on pole, got a good start, and had a big gap back to everyone else.  That's not down to luck.

From what Hamilton said in the interview, staying out was a direction from the team, they told him it was going to keep raining.  The commentators were claiming that radio communication wasn't allowed on the restart formation lap, but clearly they were wrong.  So I would not call that one Hamilton's mistake.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

He said that the team told him it was going to rain more, before getting into the car for the restart not via radio. 

Lewis seems to have had a very serious issue post race being that dizzy. He could barely function it seemed. Maybe he was coming down with an illness or as he just said in the post race media, that he is suffering still from reduced health from Covid. 

Williams will probably have the second biggest party after Ocon and crew. 

Very good race on his part. Left Alonso behind and kept Vettel back. The track helped him stay ahead but he defended against Vettel very well. 

Alonso is a great racer paired with Hamilton.. Watching them go wheel to wheel, maybe too close that one time with the little scrape. But very fun. When he parked it on the apex to stop Hamilton's advantage from an over under move was great. I had a good laugh. Definitely have to work for a pass on Alonso. Basically his defense should be on constant replay for Bottas on how to defend your teammates lead. 

If I understood the track deltas I think Russel did the same defense for Latifi. Keeping everyone as far back as possible until Verstappen forced him to up his pace near the end. 

I wonder how that start would go if Hamilton did pit before the standing start? 

The lights go out and the race director just turns the pit exit green light on?

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

The way that you influence ("control" is an overly strong word for much of this) the potential for first lap crashes is by being as far up the grid as you can.  Hamilton escaped the chaos because he was on pole, got a good start, and had a big gap back to everyone else.  That's not down to luck.

From what Hamilton said in the interview, staying out was a direction from the team, they told him it was going to keep raining.  The commentators were claiming that radio communication wasn't allowed on the restart formation lap, but clearly they were wrong.  So I would not call that one Hamilton's mistake.

 

Yeah, I agree with all your points on getting to the front to avoid this kind of crap. Obviously the drivers do everything to put them in the best position to avoid these things and actually doing so is not to be disregarded completely.

That said, what you said is exactly what makes this particular situation so E36 M3ty for Max - he actually got ahead of Bottas only to get rear ended by him (indirectly). I feel this is the same problem you face with Spa at La Source where the hairpin actually puts the front cars at risk more so than the cars at the back because most people overcook the turn and go barreling through the grid. In the end, Bottas could have just as easily went cruising into Hamilton as he could have Max (and Perez). Who he hit ultimately came down to (points to crowd so everybody can say it together) good and bad luck.

As for your second point - I just respectfully disagree. Mercedes and Lewis made a decision - it was wrong - that is a mistake.

Obviously I'm a Max fanboy so there is a decent amount of bias to my analysis. And it still takes Lewis (who is ridiculously talented) to march through the field to overcome his mistake today and take third. I'm just saying that with the chips down and counted, Lewis and Mercedes have the lead in no small part to things outside their control falling their way, not because they beat Red Bull on the track straight up - and it is frustrating. Will Lewis beat Max this year - who knows - I just want him to take the lead on the track with both of them at their best - not after putting Max in the wall or crushing his barge board because Bottas forgot water is slippery.

Advan046 said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

He said that the team told him it was going to rain more, before getting into the car for the restart not via radio. 

Quoting from the interview:  "I was telling the team how the track was through the lap, but they said the rain was coming."  That sounds to me like it was on the radio, not in the pits.

Edit:  also, see https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-explains-decision-not-to-pit-for-dry-tyres-at-restart-as-wolff.2HOX8In1vwdoKgPreh9pXW.html

BrewCity20 said:

As for your second point - I just respectfully disagree. Mercedes and Lewis made a decision - it was wrong - that is a mistake.

I agree it was a mistake, just that if the team is telling him on the radio "stay out, it's going to start raining again" then it's a team mistake, not a driver mistake.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

You are correct. I read something earlier on a different site it must have been incorrect. 

Ah man Vettel DQd. 

Williams gets more points!!!!!

Kimi gets a point. 

Hamilton extended more points lead.

Alpha Tauri passes Aston Martin.

In reply to Advan046 :

Here is the press release.  

That seems like a harsh penalty and I am not a particular Aston Martin fan. 

New York Nick said:

That seems like a harsh penalty and I am not a particular Aston Martin fan. 

It does seem harsh, but I'd bet that outcome is defined in the rulebook. 

This right here .....fist bump braheen!!!

"Will Lewis beat Max this year - who knows - I just want him to take the lead on the track with both of them at their best - not after putting Max in the wall or crushing his barge board because Bottas forgot water is slippery."