Formula 1-2021 Season

Keith Tanner said:

But it sounds like Lewis had figured out what Max was trying to do - let him past at the worst possible place so Max could pass right back again, and was refusing to go around. Which is an interesting question for the rules, just how long does the driver in front have to wait for the following car to go around? And why didn't Max get in trouble for waiting so long to give the place back after being told the second time?

He did get in trouble, that's what the 5 second penalty was for.  AIUI, the "let him by" was a directive from the team, not from the stewards, and was supposed to "right the wrong" so that the stewards didn't need to get involved.

Historically, if you waited long enough to give the place back that it wasn't practical to do it any more (like if the guy pitted), then you got a drive-through penalty.

accordionfolder said:

lol - I watched this race and just thought of the carnage that was going to happen in this thread.

It doesn't disappoint.

The worst part of the race was the track itself.  Think about it, a simple spin resulted in a long yellow that turned into a red.  That wasn't a massive error, or a car bumping into another, just a simple spin.   The restart and talk of track position- yea, it was NASCAR with open wheels.

The track may be fun to drive on, but the racing risk is just not worth it.  As a viewer, there's nothing to that track than a concrete walled tunnel.  As least at Monaco, there are some old buildings with some elevation changes and obvious water there (the next by Red Sea was not noticeable thanks to the night race).   It was pointed out before- but for a place that has SO MUCH open space to have that kind of track... not so much.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

But it sounds like Lewis had figured out what Max was trying to do - let him past at the worst possible place so Max could pass right back again, and was refusing to go around. Which is an interesting question for the rules, just how long does the driver in front have to wait for the following car to go around? And why didn't Max get in trouble for waiting so long to give the place back after being told the second time?

He did get in trouble, that's what the 5 second penalty was for.  AIUI, the "let him by" was a directive from the team, not from the stewards, and was supposed to "right the wrong" so that the stewards didn't need to get involved.

Historically, if you waited long enough to give the place back that it wasn't practical to do it any more (like if the guy pitted), then you got a drive-through penalty.

 

I thought the five second penalty was for taking position by going off track, but I guess it could have been for taking position by going off track and then not giving it back in a timely manner. That makes sense. He was driving around lap after lap without giving it back.

I don't understand why Mercedes didn't tell Lewis to chill out in the last couple of laps, he kept on resetting the fastest lap way past what anyone else could do. I guess he really wanted to eliminate the chance of someone else stealing that point. But given the nature of that track and the damaged front wing, I was pretty nervous.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Here's the sequence of events:

Max misses the corner defending the lead in T1 forcing Lewis to avoid the wreck 

Max instructed to give position back strategically

E36 M3show happens where Lewis rear-ends brake checking Max

A number of laps pass while everyone is figuring out what the hell happened

Max instructed to return position again, does so for a second and then takes position back as he has inside line

Stewards give Max 5 second penalty for initial T1 incident after Max fails to give position back

Max seems to give position back again, radio call goes out to him saying he didn't need to do that but that it doesn't matter at that point with penalty.

Yuki Tsunoda should have had a better race than that. He seemed to really like this track but went backwards.

I was happy for Ocon to show his skills and pace again. He seems to be doing rather well now against the more storied Alonso. I think he knows he can win twice as many races as Alonso next year and they media will still only want to talk to Alonso. Alpine made some good with such an old chassis. 

McLaren may have fallen too far behind Ferrari to do anything in the constructors but I am fascinated how the team is handling the driver tension with Ricciardo coming on so strong in the latter half of this season. Norris has had a tough go since he had that sick mugging in London. 

I am curious if we will see a major upset with both Kimi and Giovinazzi in the points in Abu Dhabi to just overhaul Williams in the constructors' world championship. Highly unlikely but still a possibility to get 11 points between them. 

I am oddly unimpressed by Ferrari's form. They seem to be constantly stumbling but stumbling forward to better results. 

Keith Tanner said:

I thought the five second penalty was for taking position by going off track, but I guess it could have been for taking position by going off track and then not giving it back in a timely manner. That makes sense. He was driving around lap after lap without giving it back.

I don't understand why Mercedes didn't tell Lewis to chill out in the last couple of laps, he kept on resetting the fastest lap way past what anyone else could do. I guess he really wanted to eliminate the chance of someone else stealing that point. But given the nature of that track and the damaged front wing, I was pretty nervous.

Yeah, the infringement is "leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage".  Passing someone is a lasting advantage, but if you give the position back quickly then it wasn't lasting, so no need for a penalty.

I think Mercedes was worried that Verstappen was trying to fool them into thinking his tires were worse than they were, so that he could try to steal fast lap on the last lap of the race when it was too late to respond.  In fact, if you look at the reported time gap between him and Hamilton it drops by like 2-3 seconds on the final lap, so I'm pretty sure he WAS trying to do that.

(Edit:  Just went and looked at lap data, and while Verstappen did get quicker on his final lap compared to the one before it, most of the gap change was due to Hamilton slowing down.  Verstappen was nowhere close to fast lap, so if he was trying that tactic then it wasn't very effective)

alfadriver said:

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

If you say so....  

Shall I que up Bottas taking out half the field or do you remember that one? 

You already know you are right, so you can do whatever you want.  Much like max.

You are such a shiney happy person. I seriously don't know why the berk you even post here. You are a toxic person to everyone else and constantly belittle and attack anyone who has a different viewpoint than your own. Your antics anytime Ford is brought up kill threads. Just go away.

In reply to alfadriver :

I'll say it was ... something ... my wife who's a fairly casual (even more so than myself) f1 watcher was also just drawn in. It was like it couldn't get weirder AND THEN IT DID. Literally right up to the end where BOT passed on front straight like he was straight out of a movie (though for 3rd place).

So yeah, maybe not the best overall track, but the experience was something else. Way better than the tracks where you can literally fall asleep, wake up and nothing has changed.

In reply to accordionfolder :

My wife commented that it appeared a NASCAR short track race broke out.

lol - Haaas, gotta love 'em. I really hope the playing field truly levels this next season - the beginning of this season looked a bit more mixed up, but now only RBR is hanging on with Merc.

accordionfolder said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I'll say it was ... something ... my wife who's a fairly casual (even more so than myself) f1 watcher was also just drawn in. It was like it couldn't get weirder AND THEN IT DID. Literally right up to the end where BOT passed on front straight like he was straight out of a movie (though for 3rd place).

So yeah, maybe not the best overall track, but the experience was something else. Way better than the tracks where you can literally fall asleep, wake up and nothing has changed.

I'll give you that- it was not a parade, by any means.  But it seemed that many of the battles were hemming and hawing based on stuff on the track- which got there becuase the track.

In reply to Advan046 :

While Ferrari may be unimpressive, they have wrapped up 3rd place when they were behind not to long ago.  Unimpressive, but consistent.

The really interesting thing is that the teams in 5th and 6th are generally doing better than the teams in 3rd and 4th.  Just so late in the season, they can't move up.  Renault looks really great on the track these days.  

alfadriver said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

I'm only toxic to a few people,  you happen to be one of them.  And that, my friend, is your problem, not mine.

Wow.

accordionfolder said:

lol - Haaas, gotta love 'em. I really hope the playing field truly levels this next season - the beginning of this season looked a bit more mixed up, but now only RBR is hanging on with Merc.

 

lol, love that their social media guy/gal has a sense of humor.

This is the best place I've found to read about the strategies underneath the off the deep end shenanigans that permeate F1.  I watched the official highlights on YT and the guy yelling in monotone and his pal who never gets a word in edgewise do not offer much insight.  Not knowing the rules and culture of F1 while being a casual racing fan I watched the Saudi Arabia highlights and I think to myself 'Why isn't Verstappen Black flagged?'.  And that is before the brake check incident, which when I watched carefully several times pausing in different spots showed me that Verstappen waited until he knew he could force Hamilton to hit him before hitting the brakes to create the contact.  To correlate it to a sport I do know the rules and culture of it looks like the NBA decided to start letting allowing NBA players to hit each other with baseball bats.

Im a casual fan, and from where Im sitting F1 has created situation where they have a disaster or giant farce waiting to happen next weekend and if it does not go that way it will be because they get lucky. Mind boggling..

MrFancypants said:

Keith Tanner said:

MrFancypants said:

Max stated in the post race interview that he knew Lewis was following closely, but he still applied significantly pressure to the brakes anyway. Should this be compared to the Schumacher/Villeneuve incident? As far as I know Schumacher never actually admitted that he tried to ram Villeneuve.

I don't think Schumi ever had to admit he was trying to ram Villeneuve, the on-board camera clearly showed him turning the wheel into the side of his rival. There was never any question as to what was going on which is why the penalty was significant.

That brake check move was some high school bullE36 M3. Max would have been run out of his local karting club races for that.

I think the idea that Max was just trying to be clever by roping Lewis into a pass just before the DRS marker and screwed it up is the most likely thing that happened.

But my logic with the Schumacher comparison is...  Schumacher engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.  Max, admitting to knowing that Lewis was right behind him:  Max engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.

I accept that I'm probably reaching a bit and that it's more likely that he made a stupid move rather than a deliberate one, but his general on-track behavior leaves the door open for speculation.

I think it's a fair comparison. The only real difference is that the championship would not have been decided if Max had taken both drivers out, but it sure could have been interpreted as a specific attempt to cause a collision. The Schumacher penalty was specifically applied to the championship - I'm not sure there were any penalties like superlicence points.

I do wonder if the race director will make it very clear for next weekend that the Schumi penalty will be applied for similar shenanigans by either of the two contenders. I think addressing it clearly before the race would be a good idea.

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

I'm only toxic to a few people,  you happen to be one of them.  And that, my friend, is your problem, not mine.

Wow.

You made your point, take it to PM. This thread is about F1. 

z31maniac said:

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

I'm only toxic to a few people,  you happen to be one of them.  And that, my friend, is your problem, not mine.

Wow.

You made your point, take it to PM. This thread is about F1. 

No, don't do that- just move on.  

Just talk F1

Keith Tanner said:

MrFancypants said:

Keith Tanner said:

MrFancypants said:

Max stated in the post race interview that he knew Lewis was following closely, but he still applied significantly pressure to the brakes anyway. Should this be compared to the Schumacher/Villeneuve incident? As far as I know Schumacher never actually admitted that he tried to ram Villeneuve.

I don't think Schumi ever had to admit he was trying to ram Villeneuve, the on-board camera clearly showed him turning the wheel into the side of his rival. There was never any question as to what was going on which is why the penalty was significant.

That brake check move was some high school bullE36 M3. Max would have been run out of his local karting club races for that.

I think the idea that Max was just trying to be clever by roping Lewis into a pass just before the DRS marker and screwed it up is the most likely thing that happened.

But my logic with the Schumacher comparison is...  Schumacher engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.  Max, admitting to knowing that Lewis was right behind him:  Max engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.

I accept that I'm probably reaching a bit and that it's more likely that he made a stupid move rather than a deliberate one, but his general on-track behavior leaves the door open for speculation.

I think it's a fair comparison. The only real difference is that the championship would not have been decided if Max had taken both drivers out, but it sure could have been interpreted as a specific attempt to cause a collision. The Schumacher penalty was specifically applied to the championship - I'm not sure there were any penalties like superlicence points.

I do wonder if the race director will make it very clear for next weekend that the Schumi penalty will be applied for similar shenanigans by either of the two contenders. I think addressing it clearly before the race would be a good idea.

Seeing how the two drivers are driving, it seems to me that Lewis will take a lot more evasive action to make sure he does not get taken out.  Each time Max made a lunge, lewis let him go- even the impossible ones going into turn one.  Maybe I am interpreting their moves- but Lewis seems to be a lot more careful around max after Monza.  

In reply to Shaun :

I don't think his intention was to get hit. He was very luck that he didn't sustain any serious damage, and had that taken out the L/R corner or gearbox he would have come off even worse than he did.  He was certainly making it difficult, and likely setting himself up to take the position back, but getting hit on purpose seems unlikely.  

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

I don't think his intention was to get hit. He was very luck that he didn't sustain any serious damage, and had that taken out the L/R corner or gearbox he would have come off even worse than he did.  He was certainly making it difficult, and likely setting himself up to take the position back, but getting hit on purpose seems unlikely.  

Keep in mind that two DNFs would have been very much to Verstappen's advantage over finishing second to Hamilton.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Yes but him DNFing and Hamilton going on with a new nose would have been worse. It's a lot harder to predict how a crash will end when you're not the one doing the crashing. 

In reply to Shaun :

Yes this race was a wild experience to go through live. Capped off by a movie style drag race to the finish line, just needed the 22 gear shifts over the 1/8 mile run to the line...and NOS. 

I would not judge F1 by this race alone as it was a first time venue plus some odd radio call timing that we hadn't seen before. 

Still I was totally fixated on the whole event start to finish. Some of my family jumped into and out of the room to see what the heck was going on multiple times during the race. I think the F1 and FIA need to really think about the tone they are allowing to be set and make some adjustments. But I hope they can make an impression on RBR and MB to return to more professional behavior for the final championship deciding race this coming weekend. 

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Shaun :

I don't think his intention was to get hit. He was very luck that he didn't sustain any serious damage, and had that taken out the L/R corner or gearbox he would have come off even worse than he did.  He was certainly making it difficult, and likely setting himself up to take the position back, but getting hit on purpose seems unlikely.  

What was his intention then? Given we differ in our respective view on what he was trying to do. I don't understand how even taking a chance on creating contact is part of a legitimate strategy. When I watched the incident closely the brake light comes on when Hamilton is feet away from Verstappen and turning left.  If one stops the vid a few times it will show up.  What was Verstappen trying to achive? I mean besides what I gather is considered the legitimate strategy of mucking around to create a repass which is some pretty circular logic that F1 is going with if giving up a place is the penalty for running a guy off the road (or running off the road to pass a guy, or trying run a guy off the road and then trying to ram him if you miss and run off the road yourself) and it is not a penalty as it comes with a get out of jail free card if you wait long enough. How does braking with a guy 10 feet off the back of your car help with that repass strategy?  The rear of cars is tougher than the front-  the driven wheels requite that, no?  Or was he just pissed?  He seems excitable.

I'm a causal fan of the Americas Cup as well and I was booggled by that mess until it was explained in a piece by somebody that understands the culture and rules of the Americas Cup that the teams build differing technologies then duke it out in court and who ever wins the legal skirmishes over the spec closest to the actual race has the advantage as they have the boat built to the governing spec that they created.  Once I got that I understood the whole thing.

As I've watched this season devolve I was thinking/hoping it would sort itself out with a couple penalties of consequence but it seems to have simply devolved into a brawl quite a bit less sophisticated than the Americas Cup.  I don't care who wins, I'll never have a beer with any of these guys,  they are all great drivers and the technology is fantastic.