In reply to alfadriver :
Given the dollars egos at stake it's to be expected.
In reply to alfadriver :
Given the dollars egos at stake it's to be expected.
In reply to New York Nick :
The total number of grid penalties for powertrain changes is pretty idenditcal. Max changed everything at once, got 20 spots, Lewis changed the ICE twice, 2x10 is 2o total spots.
Nobody has gotten penalized for a flexi wing. MB got penalized because the DRS opened too much, and it was a very small amount too much- but too much was too much. It wasn't flexing.
And MB's power loss has been real- which is why they have changed Lewis' ICE twice. Like Max recovering from 20th to finish 2nd in Russia, MB has been good at mitigating the penalty.
Bottas made a mistake braking into 1. Sure. Max made a mistake going into the last corner in qualifying this past weekend, too. They are still humans. (I would encourage anyone to look that start- the mistake was just locking up the left tire- which was the one more areo covered by Norris's car. Tiny mistake leading to a moderate accident)
Tom1200 said:In reply to alfadriver :
Given the dollars egos at stake it's to be expected.
100%.
New York Nick said:In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
I like you and I like what you do but that is like a Fox news or CNN report!
- I'm just some hack so what I think of the Silverstone deal doesn't matter, but Randy Probst does know something.
- The wing thing is BS from everyone (well the two that we are all talking about), flapping wings, flexing wings, failed wings, fixed wings. Unless you are getting Red Bull on a drip straight from the spice girls you have to call that a rule exploitation from both.
- Engine and component changes were discussed at length a week or two ago and yes MB has put in more engines, RB has put in more pieces, it's pretty darn close when looked at in totality. I think Keith posted the facts on that.
- Other than the most rabid Max fans see Max as the aggressor in that one and most of the other corner to corner incidents this year. I will concede that Lewis ran him off once this weekend but that is at most half the times that Max ran Lewis off this weekend.
- Bottas's drive into the corner at Hungary was not his finest, I am pretty sure that wasn't a team order though so hard to point that out as a head game.
Silverstone / Monza - The FIA faulted and penalized Hamilton. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that was the official call. The penalty was given out during the race which made it meaningless (10 seconds on a victory of greater than 10 seconds as Hamilton knew he had a penalty he had to outrun) and Verstappen was a DNF. The point is that the next time they both came together in Monza in a similar incident (neither one backing off or giving space) and the FIA ruled Max at fault good, bad, or indifferent, he was not penalized until after the race and was given a 3-place grid drop at the following race. That was not the same treatment for essentially the same incident. Who was at fault for which in the FIA's ruling was what it was. (Personally I think both of them should have been DQ'd from both races as they were both equally at fault for both and had some penalty points and grid drops, then we wouldn't be here now.)
On the wings, Mercedes was the only team to have a DQ (Hamilton qualifying) for rules infractions and the only team that I can find data on a performance drop. Not saying RB didn't also monkey around, but they were never caught, penalized, or suffered performance wise and Mercedes was.
You're right on the engines, it has evened out more or less now and is quite complicated, I was answering as it regards to Mercedes head games. AT the time Merc was the only team to have used up an allottment like that and it caused controversy at that time. It would be interseting to know how many components each team has needed to replace for crash damage.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:On the wings, Mercedes was the only team to have a DQ (Hamilton qualifying) for rules infractions and the only team that I can find data on a performance drop. Not saying RB didn't also monkey around, but they were never caught, penalized, or suffered performance wise and Mercedes was.
Was it this year that RB had to change their front wing because Merc whined? Or was it the rear? Yes, it was the rear one, so they added a test for that. Then, Merc had a mechanical failure that led to them failing the opening size test, and they got penalised. Then RB whined about the Merc having a flexy wing that nobody could see, and they added the weight test, that nobody has failed yet, but the Merc has lost a tick of speed.
Sounds like two really good groups of engineers fighting for every advantage, and knowing how to pass the tests at the same time, then backing off a bit to pass the newer test. I guarantee there are ten race teams doing that with every component of the car, but Merc and RB are better at it just now.
trigun7469 said:In reply to R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) :
I think the prototypical F1 driver is highly aggressive and unapologetic. His reactions are the psychological games played by Mercedes in practice, qualiy and in the race. Max does not have the advantage of a Bottas to play mind games on Hamilton. He is only 24 years old, not to say he will mature, but I cut him some slack. I though that Hamilton would have ran away with the championship after the break in August. I think people discount how manipulative Toto Wolf is, and how that plans into the success Mercedes. I still calling it a Prost/Senna crash in the last race and Hamilton wins when Toto runs up on the FIA. I am happy that Hamilton isn't going to cruze to another championship
I would hate to see the race be decided by Verstappen/Hamilton crashing each other out, and I think even the "orange army" would be appalled by that. This season has been exciting, much like the Hamilton/Rosberg season long duels. The Vettel championship years where he just ran away from everyone were a crashing bore. But please keep it fair, guys.
Hamilton is in Verstappen's head and it shows.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:On the wings, Mercedes was the only team to have a DQ (Hamilton qualifying) for rules infractions and the only team that I can find data on a performance drop. Not saying RB didn't also monkey around, but they were never caught, penalized, or suffered performance wise and Mercedes was.
The wing was out of spec by a half mm or so, because it had broken. That's not a performance advantage and the stewards acknowledged it, but out of spec is out of spec and so disqualifying it was the right decision just like with Vettel's fuel sample in Hungary. E36 M3 happens, it doesn't mean Mercedes was "playing mind games" or "cheating" -- it just broke.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Add to that, the "performance drop" had Hamilton eliminate 25 grid spot penalties to win the race easily. I can't imagine how fast he would have been w/o that drop, lol.
My wife is not really a racing fan though she has started following F1 after seeing the behind the scenes documentaries on Netflix.
She watched the race Sunday. Her comment about everyone's behavior was, "That was ugly. I hope they don't use this track again"
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:On the wings, Mercedes was the only team to have a DQ (Hamilton qualifying) for rules infractions and the only team that I can find data on a performance drop. Not saying RB didn't also monkey around, but they were never caught, penalized, or suffered performance wise and Mercedes was.
The wing was out of spec by a half mm or so, because it had broken. That's not a performance advantage and the stewards acknowledged it, but out of spec is out of spec and so disqualifying it was the right decision just like with Vettel's fuel sample in Hungary. E36 M3 happens, it doesn't mean Mercedes was "playing mind games" or "cheating" -- it just broke.
The performance advantage was a different wing incident than the broken one. RB lodged a formal protest on Mercs wings and the FIA changed the testing procedure. After that Merc lost 3.3 km/h in top speed.
In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
To be clear, they lost 3.3 kph with respect to redbull. At a different track.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:On the wings, Mercedes was the only team to have a DQ (Hamilton qualifying) for rules infractions and the only team that I can find data on a performance drop. Not saying RB didn't also monkey around, but they were never caught, penalized, or suffered performance wise and Mercedes was.
The wing was out of spec by a half mm or so, because it had broken. That's not a performance advantage and the stewards acknowledged it, but out of spec is out of spec and so disqualifying it was the right decision just like with Vettel's fuel sample in Hungary. E36 M3 happens, it doesn't mean Mercedes was "playing mind games" or "cheating" -- it just broke.
The performance advantage was a different wing incident than the broken one. RB lodged a formal protest on Mercs wings and the FIA changed the testing procedure. After that Merc lost 3.3 km/h in top speed.
But it's not cheating if you pass the tests put in place. It's taking maximum advantage of the rules. The closest we had to a cheater wing this year was the Red Bull one, and as soon as the testing changed, the wing was modified and passed the tests.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:The performance advantage was a different wing incident than the broken one. RB lodged a formal protest on Mercs wings and the FIA changed the testing procedure. After that Merc lost 3.3 km/h in top speed.
If you agree that the disqualification is irrelevant, why did you mention it?
And yes, as wvumtnbkr says, comparing top speeds between two different teams at two different tracks means there are at least three variables that have changed.
Streetwiseguy said:But it's not cheating if you pass the tests put in place. It's taking maximum advantage of the rules. The closest we had to a cheater wing this year was the Red Bull one, and as soon as the testing changed, the wing was modified and passed the tests.
The flexi-wing rule is kinda broken. IIRC, it says that the wing isn't supposed to deflect, like at all. Unfortunately that's impossible, perfectly rigid bodies are just as much a purely theoretical object as frictionless surfaces. Everything is a spring if you put enough force on it.
What they're trying to do is to legalize intent, and that's ultimately futile. You're not supposed to design the wing so that it flexes in such a way as to improve things, but if it happens to flex that way by accident then that's OK. There's no scrutineering test that can determine the intent, you have the choice of setting objective criteria about so much deflection under so much load (which will then by gamed by everyone to get as much out of it as they can) or you can declare spec aero and hand the teams a part that they are required to use.
And make no mistake, every team is doing flexi-wings. It's been happening for decades, the only thing that changes is which team is in the spotlight right now for doing it.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:The performance advantage was a different wing incident than the broken one. RB lodged a formal protest on Mercs wings and the FIA changed the testing procedure. After that Merc lost 3.3 km/h in top speed.
If you agree that the disqualification is irrelevant, why did you mention it?
And yes, as wvumtnbkr says, comparing top speeds between two different teams at two different tracks means there are at least three variables that have changed.
Again, the track after Brazil, the Mercedes got pole and won the race. The performance drop on the straight was more than made up on the rest of the track- which suggests that MB had a little more downforce, leading to more drag.
Let alone MB has pointed out a few times they have reused the wing in question, and it has passed all tests- including the new one. I suppose this is another "head game" that Toto is doing- downplaying their performance and all to lul RBR into a false sense of security... So evil that is.
An excellent breakdown from this weekend, with actual data from the cars.
In reply to Advan046 :
Redbull is the boy that is screaming wolf and well Toto Wolf is the Wolf.
On the maturity level Because I deal with college aged (18-30's years old) at a daily basis the level of maturity is far removed from 20-30 years ago and is only getting worse. I could write a dissertation on my thoughts. Both drivers are very immature, but I think its a sign of the times. Honestly I think that Vettel is probably the most matured driver over the years.
In reply to trigun7469 :
What a silly, silly collection of thoughts - a dissertation would require actual data, not fixed point anecdotes. You sound like a drunk uncle at thanksgiving ranting about the golden age that never happened.
Keep that crap on facebook.
OK I have been digesting what was posted in response to my honest curiosity.
@Javelin - If those are "mind games" for you then we just have very different connotations of what "mind games" are. I would have categorized those as just on track incidents or off track technical actions. For instance if Ferrari was cheating with a fancy engine trick with fuel flow, that isn't mind games it is just Ferrari cheating the rules. Even in most of your descriptions you write that both RBR and MB engaged in opposing inflamatory statements or similar actions first or after MBs actions. I guess I see "mind games" as if MB saw Max pitting behind Bottas and thus slowed Bottas' pitstop to release him in front of Max but then have Bottas drive out the pits at half the pit lane speed limiter. I guess you are including the press statements of the team bosses as the mind games. But thank you, I think I now understand what you mean when you say there are mind games.
@trigun7469 - Ok I was hoping for the summary paragraph from your dissertation with regards to MB and RBR mind games. We all have our generational perspective of the world. For instance I have 4 young adults in my family that quit college in their last semester before getting a degree. Soooo odd to me to not stick it out the last 4 months after years but as some are very distant cousins I don't know why this is a trend, maybe it is just in my ethnic group, IDK. I wasn't picking on your post it was the last of many straws I saw over the past few days about MB mind games being unfair from MB.
In reply to racerfink :
That was a good video, I was watching (the race) and in the excitement of it all didn't realize that the closing of the gap was due to Max slowing down before that point. I also didn't realize that they were going 125 mph slower than a typical lap at that point. Very interesting stuff.
In reply to Advan046 :
"...all have our generational perspective of the world..."
Ha! "of the world" - Having perspective isn't the issue here - it's the lack of perspective or understanding about scale. Making sweeping generalizations based on any one person's tiny world view is laughable. If you've got a study at a mathematically significant scale that underlines this trend (quantify "less mature"???), sure - that works. If you have "extensive experience" via anecdotes - that's a joke.
This thread is always good for a laugh.
Here's to hoping for a good race this week anywho.
In reply to accordionfolder :
Research in the social sciences use observation and scaling for human behavior. Using the measurement of grades, financials, and tracking what services a students uses and when they use it are all data points. Student that has outstanding balance, requests a tutor the last week of classes and has failing grades can be used at data points and observations can be made. These observations become strategies, success coaches are the newest trend to force feed students over the finish line, walking them to and from class. I am part of a think tank group studying the future of the work force, if the organizations stopped using old data and used observation they wouldn't be crying for qualified employees.... I will be sure to post the results on facebook for you lolz.
In reply to trigun7469 :
Well then, I stand corrected. Is this research published or ? I think being skeptical of your initial statement is fairly reasonable.
I would still consider it a massive stretch to be comparing the "maturity" of two of the best merit drivers of our generation in the highest form of motorsports to 18-30's (in the US only?) getting through college successfully. Well, I suppose baring the scope of your data - I might just eat humble pie again in that case.
Further, there's something hilarious about someone with the username and avatar of a cheesy anime character from the 90's extrapolating the relative maturity of the single most successful f1 driver of any generation, not to mention his success outside of formula1.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo
As for this thread and various people being called out for rants and other opinions let's review:
This is a thread by a bunch of Formula 1 nerds (myself included) so why would it not include less than scientific opinions and rants?
Now as for driving standards; I always go back to Google Giuseppe Farina. Bad behavior is as old as the championship itself.
It's been a hard fought year; whichever driver wins, it's been an exciting year. I'm rooting for Hamilton but I hope it goes down to the closing laps. Hopefully the losing driver will be as gracious as Felipe Massa was.
"This is a thread by a bunch of Formula 1 nerds (myself included) so why would it not included less than scientific opinions and rants?"
I mean, that's all it is really - which is why it's always funny. Shooting the breeze.
As if Max and Lewis aren't doing EXACTLY what they intended to do exactly as they discussed with their respective teams and team-bosses this year. From the car placement to risky maneuvers. It's like the f1 tabloids trying to read into every little detail as if they've uncovered some secret that either of the big two haven't. I love reading about individuals raging in regards to the calculated games of Horner or Wolf - they do what they're doing on purpose. It's as if someone watched the editing in Drive to Survive and think that's how a real company is actually run.
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