06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
It's official. Ford is running with the RedBulls in 2026
https://www.thedrive.com/news/fords-back-in-f1-as-red-bull-alphatauri-engine-partner-starting-in-2026
From what I read there, there's no real possibility that Verstappen overtakes Hamilton if he stays at RBR. If it were just a sponsorship deal- perhaps. But it's being called a technical tie, and that Ford is going to develop an engine and a 350kw electric motor. Not Cosworth, but actual Ford.
Mind you, in the last year, some of the most experienced ICE engineers were told to retire. And in the handful of people I've met, morale is not exactly positive. Before you tell me that the European part of Ford is going to do this- the shedding of experience and people there happened quite a while ago.
And I'm quite sure that Honda is going to prevent any of their IP to get into Ford's hands. Even if they were not going to stay.
To give you an example of the delusion going on:
"The return to Formula 1 with Red Bull Racing is all about where we are going as a company–increasingly electric, software-defined, modern vehicles and experiences,” said Jim Farley, CEO of Ford Motor Company. “F1 will be an incredibly cost-effective platform to innovate, share ideas and technologies, and engage with tens of millions of new customers.”
On what planet?
j_tso
Dork
2/3/23 11:09 a.m.
Probably cost effective in terms of marketing.
GM can win Daytona 24s and sell the Corvette E-Ray, but won't have the cachet of their sticker on a car at Monaco.
welp, I guess Ford ain't coming to the GTP party.
So RBR will do their own engines (ie, do minimal changes on the Honda mill) for the 23, 24 and 25 seasons, then Ford will take over. Did they definitively sell the valve cover branding to someone else during that period?
Meanwhile, back in September, they were talking up the fact that they already had their 2026 power unit running and they'd just poached a bunch of Mercedes engineers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/30/sports/autoracing/f1-red-bull-power-unit.html
In reply to j_tso :
Ford won Daytona and LeMans, which didn't result in much change. I was super excited about it, as it was a very personal related achievement. And that was "cheap" because it was totally based on a production engine. This is totally unique and from scratch.
The only real benefit I see is if Ford can move to the super high voltage systems that F1 uses in a safe manner for the real world. That's a pretty significant jump in efficiency. That, and making the regen system super efficient- that helps all of the EV's in development- from MHEV to BEVs.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Isn't that going to be called an RBR powertrain? Or maybe even a Honda Racing powertrain?
But, I honestly don't see anything that originated in Japan making it to Dearborn. Honda is a very good company for the planet- but I'm not sure they are so good that they are willing to give someone their hard earned development.
I thought there was some talk about putting some Porsche stickers on it - oh, but maybe that fell apart because Porsche wanted to be actually involved. So yeah, probably branded RBR for 2023. Red Bull has always been quite eager to sell the engine branding separately from the chassis.
If the 2026 is a clean sheet engine (or mostly clean sheet), there shouldn't be much Honda IP leaking out. By that time, it'll be a generation old in F1 terms.
Ford announce new technical partnership with Red Bull for 2026 and beyond I know that RBR isn't going to change their scheme but it would be cool if Alpha T. ran the Ford GT color scheme red, white and blue.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well, I would not call Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, and Honda 2026 engines clean sheet. All of them will have a decade of hybrid F1 experience, and then 4 seasons of alcohol. Ford will be a clean sheet.
And in the best of conditions, it will take as long as Honda to win, which was 6 seasons. If one accounts for the dumpster fire of the previous owners of RBF, it will be never. So the outlook will be between 6 and never going to happen for seasons to success.
And given the drastic internal turn that has gone on, I'm not exactly optimistic for success.
alfadriver said:
And in the best of conditions, it will take as long as Honda to win, which was 6 seasons. If one accounts for the dumpster fire of the previous owners of RBF, it will be never. So the outlook will be between 6 and never going to happen for seasons to success.
The 2026 engines are supposed to be significantly simpler than the current ones, due to the lack of the MGU-H. That was the part that I liked best about the F1 engine package (all kinds of cool stuff you can do with an electric motor/generator on the turbine shaft), but it was also the most expensive and difficult to understand so it's been axed.
A huge amount is going to depend on whether or not Ford learned their lesson from Jaguar. If one wants to win as a manufacturer in F1, the best way to do is to buy an existing team and give them the money, resources, and other support needed to keep doing what they're doing, just better. That's what they did to win Le Mans with the GT40. Poking one's fingers into the workings of the team to do it "The Ford Way" (Jaguar) or "The Honda Way" (BAR) or whatever has historically been a bad idea.
alfadriver said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well, I would not call Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, and Honda 2026 engines clean sheet. All of them will have a decade of hybrid F1 experience, and then 4 seasons of alcohol. Ford will be a clean sheet.
And in the best of conditions, it will take as long as Honda to win, which was 6 seasons. If one accounts for the dumpster fire of the previous owners of RBF, it will be never. So the outlook will be between 6 and never going to happen for seasons to success.
And given the drastic internal turn that has gone on, I'm not exactly optimistic for success.
Red Bull Powertrains isn't going to throw away all their years of F1 engine development experience (purchased from Honda) just because they're adding a Ford sticker to the cars and getting access to Ford's engineering team.
In reply to CrashDummy :
You are assuming that RBP actually owns the IP. Especially since none of it is generated by RBP, it's all Honda. I hoenstly don't see Honda willing to just hand over that IP because.
(and thanks for the new actronym- I didn't think of it until replying to your post, LOL)
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
alfadriver said:
And in the best of conditions, it will take as long as Honda to win, which was 6 seasons. If one accounts for the dumpster fire of the previous owners of RBF, it will be never. So the outlook will be between 6 and never going to happen for seasons to success.
The 2026 engines are supposed to be significantly simpler than the current ones, due to the lack of the MGU-H. That was the part that I liked best about the F1 engine package (all kinds of cool stuff you can do with an electric motor/generator on the turbine shaft), but it was also the most expensive and difficult to understand so it's been axed.
A huge amount is going to depend on whether or not Ford learned their lesson from Jaguar. If one wants to win as a manufacturer in F1, the best way to do is to buy an existing team and give them the money, resources, and other support needed to keep doing what they're doing, just better. That's what they did to win Le Mans with the GT40. Poking one's fingers into the workings of the team to do it "The Ford Way" (Jaguar) or "The Honda Way" (BAR) or whatever has historically been a bad idea.
While the removal of the eboost system is a massive deal, the lack of time making a very specific combustion chamber with the very cool CVCC type ignition system that can probalby combust quite lean is more what I'm concerned about. And then the decade of understanding the hybrid interface on this level.
Again, even if they totally learned the lessons of the past, it's going to take time to ramp up the knoweldge. But thinking that they will learn the F1 mistakes when the same management mistakes have been going on forever is a big stretch to me. There's still a lot of mistrust between Europe and the US, which should have been gone decades ago.
alfadriver said:
In reply to CrashDummy :
You are assuming that RBP actually owns the IP. Especially since none of it is generated by RBP, it's all Honda. I hoenstly don't see Honda willing to just hand over that IP because.
(and thanks for the new actronym- I didn't think of it until replying to your post, LOL)
While it may not be clear who owns the IP, RBP is definitely going to be using it for the next few years. It'll be hard to keep that completely separate.
Keith Tanner said:
alfadriver said:
In reply to CrashDummy :
You are assuming that RBP actually owns the IP. Especially since none of it is generated by RBP, it's all Honda. I hoenstly don't see Honda willing to just hand over that IP because.
(and thanks for the new actronym- I didn't think of it until replying to your post, LOL)
While it may not be clear who owns the IP, RBP is definitely going to be using it for the next few years. It'll be hard to keep that completely separate.
Not sure who will know what. And it's still going to be a while until RBR gets powertrains build by RBP. Everything I'm finding is that Honda will be making powertrains in Japan for at least this season, if not up through 2025.
Which means direct info flow to RBP from Honda isn't as obvious as "this combustion chamber shape...".
Still, it's one thing to have blue prints to make stuff, it's another to be the ones making the blue prints and knowing why you did it.
Wait won't Ford just hire a bunch of mid to high level engineers from the other F1 teams? Same with VW. Just fund the hires for their respective teams, not actually make them FORD employees.
I was excited to see some new cars unveiled in the next few weeks but seem a bit sad that more and more they seem to be show cars that aren't very representative of the cars that show up in qualifying in the first race. Maybe it is just my perception.
I guess by 2026 we will have an answer to if the cost cap and tiered aero allowed based on prior season standings helps even the field. I am curious if Alfa will try hard until 2025, but in that season purposely finish last.
In reply to Advan046 :
Given the pace of development in F1, it's not surprising the "reveal" cars are only rough approximations - both because there's still a lot of evolution to come, and also to prevent other teams from learning about new ideas too soon.
Keith Tanner said:
In reply to Advan046 :
Given the pace of development in F1, it's not surprising the "reveal" cars are only rough approximations - both because there's still a lot of evolution to come, and also to prevent other teams from learning about new ideas too soon.
It's been that way for years, couple of decades, at this point. For exactly the reasons you stated. This is only surprising for the "casuals" of the sport.
Lots of interesting speculation around McLaren and Honda.
McLaren is looking for an engine deal in '26, and they are doing their work and talking with all of the current engine possibilities for '26, including RBP/Ford. And Honda.
But so many people have changed at both companies that what happened with the previous time is kind of being overlooked.
Domenicali calls Andretti's "greedy" remark "not smart"
“First of all, we are very welcoming of everyone that is bringing value to the racing,” Domenicali told Sky Sports F1.
Really? literally any other series has welcomed Andretti 
In reply to trigun7469 :
Mike is angry that the rest of the field doubts he can field a car that would not finish in last place. As far as I can see, that's the real doubt, not the money.
In reply to alfadriver :
I wonder if it would all be different if there headquarters was in the UK. HAAS has some space in UK. In addition to many things USF1 team didn't have a location in UK (Spain).
In reply to trigun7469 :
It would be different if Andretti Motor sports had won a championship in the last decade. Or if we were talking Chip or Roger being the one making the application.
For sure, if Mike doesn't learn from Gene in terms of a European location, well, they won't last long.
Drive to Survive trailer:
All 2023 cars have been launched.
