Formula One - 2016

^Yep, if he hadn't beached the car on the in-road to pit lane in China in '07 he would have likely won.

markwemple wrote: Sad to think that over the last 20 years, only 3 drivers have won in inferior or equal cars: Hakkinen, Alonso and Raikonnen.

It's easy to stare at 4 and 5 year winning streaks and put it down to the car the whole time, but it's actually not true. Ferrari had a massively better car in 2002 and 2004, but McLaren & Williams took half the race wins in 2000, 2001, and 2003. Red Bull was similar, dominant in 2011 and 2013, but 2010 and 2012 were close.

As for the other years, Button's BGP001 may have been the class of the field for the first 5 or 6 races, but by the end of the season was struggling to get podiums. Massa's F2008 was a faster car than Hamilton's MP4/23, and Schumacher's Benetton was a slower car than the Williams in 94/95 (granted, that's slightly over 20 years ago).

Keith Tanner wrote: Also, if Nico was watching Senna tapes, the last race of the season would have ended on the first corner.

Which is why Nico is a more deserving champ than some of Senna or Schumacher's titles. He didn't win by being a twat monkey douche bag.

nderwater wrote: 2016 is marks the third time that Lewis lost the championship in the last race of the season. As a rookie in 2007 he made a series of bone-headed mistakes at the end of the season and lost to Kimi by 1 point. He was also in contention for the championship down to the last race in 2010. It's got to be massively disappointing to be so close, yet so far--but the three titles he did win must make that an easier pill to swallow.

Keith Tanner wrote: ...if Nico was watching Senna tapes, the last race of the season would have ended on the first corner.

Rimshot!

I'm not so sure on the phrasing of that. If Lewis was in the lead going into the last race, and then lost the championship, then, yes, one could say he lost the championship.

But it's more appropriate that one would say that he didn't win the championship on the last race. Which would more suggest that Lewis lost the championship before Bahrain- most would put that in Malaysia with the engine blow up.

Going into the last three races, the championship was Nicos to win or lose- Lewis needed help.

The 2007 China race was a tough one- I still contend that he was told to come in a lap late- it's not as if he was going that fast entering the pits. But the tires were gone, gone, gone, and the pit entrance was still damp.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Also, if Nico was watching Senna tapes, the last race of the season would have ended on the first corner.

Which is why Nico is a more deserving champ than some of Senna or Schumacher's titles. He didn't win by being a twat monkey douche bag.

I really wondered whether that would happen...Would have taken the pressure off, that's for sure.

It bugs me when people start looking at the tail end of the championship to decide worthiness. People complain that the only time Seb lead the title chase in 2010 was after the last race. So what, he got most points over the whole season. The oposite is the case with Button in 2009. People said he only won because he had the best car at the start of the year and faded at the end. so what. the car was built to the same rules as the rest of the field and he won ont he total of the whole season. that's why the 2014 double points for the last race was BS. No race is bigger than any other. Indy has the same issue with the 500, all races should be the same.

I think Nico got his Mojo on at the end of last year when Lewis wen to sleep after clinching the title with three races to go when Nico won the last three on the trot. That gave him the momentum and confidence coming into this year where he won the first four of the year. He was mentally switched on from the start and was a stronger racer in and out of the car than previously. This last weekend he had everything too loose and I'd argue the Nico we used to know would have caved and never got past Mad Max in the early part of the race and or allowed Lewis backing him up to mind berkeley him and he'd have lost it. Nico 2.0 is a better racer than Nico 1.0 of old. A worthy champion, my hat off to him.

Now, 2017 all bets are off. New cars, new aero, new tires. Game on boys and girls.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

I was in fact really amazed by Nico's ballsy pass on Max. You are 100% right that this was the new and improved Nico - he would have avoided the conflict or struggled in the past. He really did grow as a driver these last couple years. The same growth is true for Lewis despite me liking him less.

Pretty proud of the boys at HAAS in their first year out as well. Really looking forward to things getting shaken up next year.

Streetwiseguy wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Also, if Nico was watching Senna tapes, the last race of the season would have ended on the first corner.

Which is why Nico is a more deserving champ than some of Senna or Schumacher's titles. He didn't win by being a twat monkey douche bag.

I really wondered whether that would happen...Would have taken the pressure off, that's for sure.

I am really glad he's too mature for that. It took Schumi a long time to regain my respect after he tried to drive Villenuve off the circuit.

Keith Tanner wrote: I am really glad he's too mature for that. It took Schumi a long time to regain my respect after he tried to drive Villenuve off the circuit.

Pah, I haven't forgiven him got taking Hill out in Adelaide 94 while driving, err sorry crashing an illegal car. “Yes I know we have traction control fitted but honest we never used it despite other drivers watching the exit of tight corners pointing out how it was behaving an sounding compared to the rest of the cars and how it was just like the prior year’s cars when traction control was still legal”. Hence my claim that Schumacher is at best a 6 time champ and Hill is really a two time champ.

The tc argument is also true of the redbulls. They always claim never to have it but look at traction incidents over the years and it's clear they did. Don't know how they got away with it.

And Schumi never learned. All you have to do is look at qualifying at Monaco in 2006.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Now, 2017 all bets are off. New cars, new aero, new tires. Game on boys and girls.

Some good pictures about that- the most of the most obvious will be the lower rear wing- by 15cm. The next should be the wider stance and tires- going up 20cm pretty much across the board-

markwemple wrote: The tc argument is also true of the redbulls. They always claim never to have it but look at traction incidents over the years and it's clear they did. Don't know how they got away with it.

Or Renault in the 2000s. I went to every USGP at Indy, and you could distinctly hear how different they sounded on corner exit. For years it was like that.

Stuff like this is why I don't discount Schumacher's first championship like Ade does. They all cheat, some are just better at not getting caught.

I will hold most comments until after the first race, but I'm not seeing Merc stepping back. They will still have the same power unit, which is still the best out there.

And everybody knows horsepower kicks ass.

What was that line from Stroker Ace... "More horsepower makes better drivers of us all." Or was it "Seagrams seven and seven up makes better drivers of us all." Maybe both.

The thing that's amazing about 1994 is that Schumacher won it despite being excluded from 4 races.

alfadriver wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Now, 2017 all bets are off. New cars, new aero, new tires. Game on boys and girls.

Some good pictures about that- the most of the most obvious will be the lower rear wing- by 15cm. The next should be the wider stance and tires- going up 20cm pretty much across the board-

I like this. Less aero, more tire. Although that's a bigger front wing, so maybe it'll make the "can't follow too closely" problem worse. I don't think it'll be a sea change like the beginning of the hybrid era was, though.

I need to look at a good rundown of the rule changes.

Less areo?

Wider front/rear wing,wider floor,the diffuser is wider/longer and deeper.

I guess the low mounted wing is simply to try and keep the air stream lower immediately behind the car to hopefully allow cars to follow a little closer.

Sorry, the width of the rear wing and the diffuser length wasn't listed. But relying more on undercar aero should make it easier to pass, as it's my understanding that it's less affected by following another car.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

The rear diffuser is quite a big bigger- both deeper, starting before the axle, and higher at the exit.

In terms of upsetting the aero- there are people arguing both sides- some think that the additional aero under the car and the lowered/wider front wing will help cars follow, others think it will hurt. So who knows.

With the same powertrain (although it seems as if some limits are going away), they expect the cars to be 5 seconds faster on many tracks. Since the '16 cars were approaching track records, it appears that we will have some of the fastest cars, ever.

I'm with Eric, while not a consensus a lot of people think the wider rear wing will cause more turbulance and that the more effective front wing will also be more affected by that turbulance so it may make the issues worse.

What will be interesting is too see how much faster the cars will be. A lot of people think that the Mercedes engines are already at 1,000hp plus. Then add wider tires, wider track, more under body aero plus a probable net gain in upper body aero, I can see track times really tumbling next year. The super fast tracks like Monza and Mexico will be interesting to see what it does to top speed. JPM still has the highest trap speed at Monza from 05 at 231mph. Back to the 80's 1,500hp quali engines Gerhardt Burger hit 218mph. This year the highest was around 222mph. So where will the drag/downforce/speed balancing act play out?

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

1000hp??? really? At 100l/hr as the MAX fuel flow ever, that's a very impressive brake spec fuel consumption amount. Man.

When is that going to trickle down to making 10-15hp?

alfadriver wrote: 1000hp??? really? At 100l/hr as the MAX fuel flow ever, that's a very impressive brake spec fuel consumption amount. Man.

Not confirmed and not necessarily in race trim, but people think they might already be there in quali.

Here, and they deny it here.

One and done for Rosberg.

Nico is retiring.

In reply to Spoolpigeon:

I did not see that coming. When? now or at the end of next season? It's not April 1st today is it?

So who replaces him? Bottas? Esteban Ocon? He's really impressed in his half season and put the prior Mercedes golden boy Vandoorn a bit in the shadow.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Immediate I believe. The article mentions that they don't know who will drive in his place next year.

I'd like to see Wherlein get the seat.