Formula One - 2017

Javelin wrote:

Advan046 wrote: Honda will figure it out. Just need some time. Then Alonso can show his stuff.

No, they won't. They boomed FOUR power units in Alonso's car just *this race* and still got a DNF. They have used, IIRC, 5 units in pre-season testing, as well. They are almost out of units for the *whole season*. In fact, numerous outlets are reporting that McLaren is now actively talking with Mercedes about the leftover Manor engines for the rest of 2017...

That's their best move unless the FIA will give them some help. AS, otherwise, they will always be starting from the back of the grid.

Alonso apparently told McLaren that if he wasn't in the points, he was going to park the car on the last lap for the rest of the season, and say he had engine trouble.

He doesn't have to go into details about the trouble being, "It's gutless."

Why do I believe rumors of Teflonso applying pressures to McOjjeh? (hahahahahahaha)

Forza Ferrari!

Streetwiseguy wrote: Alonso apparently told McLaren that if he wasn't in the points, he was going to park the car on the last lap for the rest of the season, and say he had engine trouble.

That's an asinine move and completely unhelpful. If I had a driver who told me that, I'd fire his ass so fast he'd forget where he lived. I don't buy into the "Alonso is the best driver on the grid!" enthusiasm, all he does is use his high profile to bring attention to any problems. I'd much rather have someone like Grosjean who seems to be actively working to spur the team on.

Alonso would be a lot more useful washing the bodywork than driving if he's just going to purposefully DNF.

My understanding is that the team told him to shut it down before a fatal event. Good call if true. Easier to diagnose a problem while everything is still intact.

Best of in-car audio from Bahrain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOaLUMYvmP8

Yesterday the McLaren F1 team managed to make it 16 whole laps in testing. Sauber, who also has no points, made 106.

Yeah, I don't think Alonso is parking it, I think it really did E36 M3 the bed with 2 to go. What a piece of crap!

McLaren did 49 laps on the second day of testing which was about average for the teams there. Also there have been rumors of Alonso parking it if out of the points before. It's been mentioned on a few of the F1 Podcasts out there. Alonso is such a prima donna that he thinks he could get away with E36 M3 like that. right now McHonda think they still need him. there is no doubt that he is one of the best and was undoubtable one of the fastest ever, but he is far from the complete package. Most people know my distain for both Senna and Schumacher with their unsportsmanlike and dangerous behavior on track overshadowing their many other undoubtable talents. One talent I give both of them that Alonso is lacking is the ability to build up a team around them and make everyone want to work with them for totally focused success. They may have been ruthless backstabbing bastards, but they were ruthless backstabbing bastards who believed in the old adage 'there is no I in team' They built up their teams around them. Fred Prima Donna Alonso thinks he's better than that. If he really was still the ultimate hot E36 M3 int he paddock don't you think Mercedes or Williams would have bought him out of McHonda after Nico left?

BTW 'Backstabbing bastard' is not an insult, it's a prerequisite to be a top line Race car driver.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Sweet! Im a top line Race Car driver!

In reply to Tom_Spangler:

To Vettel - You were the quickest. Yeah, sure, not the fastest lap and Lewis catching you by as much as 2 seconds a lap but, yeah, you were the quickest. Petting a delicate ego much?!

markwemple wrote: To Vettel - You were the quickest. Yeah, sure, not the fastest lap and Lewis catching you by as much as 2 seconds a lap but, yeah, you were the quickest. Petting a delicate ego much?!

I'm a long way from being a Vettel fan, but it looked to me that he was managing a gap. No reason to work the car any harder than necessary, that engine has to last another 3 or 4 races, and winning by a few seconds is the same number of points as winning by half a lap.

codrus wrote:

markwemple wrote: To Vettel - You were the quickest. Yeah, sure, not the fastest lap and Lewis catching you by as much as 2 seconds a lap but, yeah, you were the quickest. Petting a delicate ego much?!

I'm a long way from being a Vettel fan, but it looked to me that he was managing a gap. No reason to work the car any harder than necessary, that engine has to last another 3 or 4 races, and winning by a few seconds is the same number of points as winning by half a lap.

Yep. Once the math of not catching Seb became obvious, Lewis slowed down a bunch as well.

In reply to Streetwiseguy:

I think that is more accurate.

So what's the theory on why Honda just can't get a grasp on this?

stroker wrote: So what's the theory on why Honda just can't get a grasp on this?

They're treating it more as an educational exercise for their engineers rather than trying to win F1 races.

stroker wrote: So what's the theory on why Honda just can't get a grasp on this?

They keep going for a ridiculously small "size 0" package in hopes of finding any aero advantage since the basic architecture that they are stuck with is always going to be down on power. That's why they keep having cooling issues.

red_stapler wrote:

stroker wrote: So what's the theory on why Honda just can't get a grasp on this?

They're treating it more as an educational exercise for their engineers rather than trying to win F1 races.

Yup, that's what I've read and heard in many places too. Mario Illien (The 'Il' in Ilmor for those who dont' know him) has finished making the Renault lump not suck donkey nads so he's available. Honda should email him the account number to a Swiss bank account and tell him to have at it.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

red_stapler wrote:

stroker wrote: So what's the theory on why Honda just can't get a grasp on this?

They're treating it more as an educational exercise for their engineers rather than trying to win F1 races.

Yup, that's what I've read and heard in many places too. Mario Illien (The 'Il' in Ilmor for those who dont' know him) has finished making the Renault lump not suck donkey nads so he's available. Honda should email him the account number to a Swiss bank account and tell him to have at it.

This has always been Honda's philosophy about racing. It must improve the company not just in advertising dollars like MB, Renault, and Ferrari use it for. I agree with the philosophy. However, it is a sliding scale and it doesn't have to be all the way to the on the job training side.

But based on the comments from the head of the program they just didn't do a good job of their testing planning. Meaning their testing and experiments didn't properly model the actual engine environment in the car. They reportedly have experienced massive vibrations that basically shake the engine apart. They also have some issues with how they modeled energy losses from the recovery system. More losses equals more heat. Plus all of this they timed such that once they put together a full size representative test engine they didn't have enough time for a redesign for fixes. So they went into the season having a frozen engine they knew they had issues with. This fits the Honda engineering model for their road cars. Having worked with their suppliers I came to understand that unlike Toyota that prioritizes stopping production to eliminate a problem in the design rather than temporary fix. Honda spends a lot of energy finding a way to postpone any design change until the regular scheduled design change which usually was 6 or 12 month intervals. So if there was a stamping die making roofs with an odd crease they will crash test some and if they pass, well, make 6 months of creased roofs for the accord. Even if the supplier pointed out it was just an odd popout pin alignment that would take 1 day to fix. They preferred the devil they know. So reading that Honda didn't leave time for a redesign and instead has taken a path to just try and fix what they have until next winter seems about right.

I do think they will get it right and that means also getting the right team that can plan for the redesign cycle before FIA engine freeze dates.

Wait I forgot the tokens are gone now so I think they plan a major fix for Canada GP

A popular race car driver once said, you only need to go fast enough to win.

Honda didn't do too well when they started in Indycar. Now they are winning races.

I am surprised that the wheel to wheel racing between botas and vettel at the restart got very little love. It was a small amount of excitement but still cool to see.

I am not sure what to expect in Russia. The teams are still figuring out their cars and tires. It seems who ever figures out the tires best wins the day.

Regarding Honda (because I honestly don't know the details), who agreed to them re-entering F1? And, is that person still around? I'm sure the president blessed it, but who was the person who was leading the project? I wonder if they've left and the the project head isn't that interested in F1?

As we know, Honda is successful in IndyCar, so it makes me wonder why that passion/experience hasn't transferred to the F1 team. I wonder, and may be totally off, if someone inherited the F1 decision and just isn't putting the time into it. It happens all the time in software where someone has some idea and project and then moves on, and the person put in their place thinks they either have a better idea or just doesn't like it, so they let it starve and then say, "See, it would have never worked in the first place."

As y'all have said, Honda doesn't have the same view of racing as other companies do where they concentrate more on road car applicability and less on adversiting, but this seems to be a serious black eye for Honda in the PR department.

Or, is everyone just too heavily invested at this point, that they have to see it through either the contract end or when they'll be successful?

-Rob

I believe I'm right in that Honda US is running the Indycar side, where Japan has the burden of the F1 units. I remember a factory Honda driver running a car up Pikes Peak telling me that they had to call Japan just to make air pressure adjustments. No one on site had the authority to make the call. Depending on time of day, you were SOL if they didn't answer the phone.

Anyway, I've heard on the biggest issues with the F1 engine is the politics of having a slow moving structure in Japan.

I don't think it's smart to compare Indycar to F1. The rules are very different and Honda's only competition in Indycar is Chevrolet, so that alone simplifies the situation. I am a little baffled that Honda doesn't have a better grasp on F1 at this point, but they have made decent progress considering how much of a late start they got.

Alonso visit the Indy car race today.

Seemed to be having a good time. Even signed some autographs.