Getting in on the Mike Rowe love fest

In reply to fifty:

Yop don't have to go back that fr, a few months ago they wanted to take back my pay and health insurance

I went to college for marketing, I am now a fully ticketed TIG welder. The lack of interest in skilled trades is due to a few things. One reason is the fact that when I was in school, if you were labeled a "dummy" they sent you to vocational school to learn how to weld, or do bodywork, how stupid is that? Skilled tradespeople are viewed as "Grubs". Nobody wants to get dirty anymore. I still can't figure out how a computer guy gets paid more than I do? Both jobs are highly skilled, mentally draining and my job is physically challenging as well. I don't deserve the same pay? I love welding, but I don't love the way I'm viewed when I walk into a store, or an office with my work clothes on. The perception is, "Oh, he must not have been good at school, so he learned a trade."

Cheers to Mike Rowe, he's correct in what he says, I just hope somebody listens. And if you meet a skilled tradesperson, treat them with respect, they are not dummies.

Grizz wrote: No matter how much I agree with what he said, am I the only one who got kinda pissed that our politicians apparently think they don't have anything better to do with their time than listen to a speech from a celebrity?

Not the only one - see my comment on page 1.

Hey old guys that have never worked in corporate america before.....

Try lying about your skills/education/work history on a resume or application now. If your applying for any kind of job with real money and benefits attached, all that stuff is actually checked out now.

Where I work currently, all three references were called, a call to OSU to verify my education was made as well as my two prior places of employment.

Sure, you could get away with that for a job at $10/hr driving a crummy forklift. But not a good job with a good company.

I think things are done a lot differently here.

I've never once had a reference, or education checked, and the only ones that do it as a matter of routine (that I've seen) are the recruiters, and that's primarily their job. I work for a large American company.

Toyman01 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Grizz wrote:

triumph5 wrote: True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .

It's been 6 years since I dropped out, so you're probably right. I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things. That D student isn't going to be an engineer, maybe we should do something to make sure he isn't stuck at McDonalds for the rest of his life.

I'm not fine with art and music getting cut. But i would be fine with sports being cut from SCHOOL budget. Let that E36 M3 be the community's burden directly, instead of taking away from school funding.

Sports teach no less than art and music. Maybe the community should support both of them and let the schools concentrate on more academic things. Edited to add: In most instances sports and art/music aren't going to add to anyone's ability to put food on the table. There are a lot of other thing that will. I would much rather see them teach those. Carpentry, electricity, welding, mechanics, computers, automotive repairs, plumbing, the list is endless. For every sports player or musician there are thousands of trades people. Why teach what almost no one does for a living.

I can get behind that.

Just chaps my ass when i see art/music being cut so the school can pump up their sports program.

fifty wrote: Isn't this the same group of folks who 3 years ago grumbled about how much skilled tradesmen made at GM, Ford and Chrysler? Or were they not making enough?

Skilled trade =! attaching the same interior panel every day for 30 years.

bingo

It looks like I'm the outlier here. I actually learned valuable things in college. Some was academic, and some was how things work. Much was friendships and connections that will last my life through. I'm not "using" my ME degree, but I still value it highly. I don't dispute that there is value to knowing a trade. I don't think tradespeople are inferior or stupid. What I know, is that people with a college degree earn more money than those without. That's a fact. It all depends on what money does for you.
I think a lot of the push for kids to college is that we want our children to have a better life than we did. This has gone on for generations, and I'm worried that this millenial generation will be the first to have it worse than their parents.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Toyman01 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Grizz wrote:

triumph5 wrote: True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .

It's been 6 years since I dropped out, so you're probably right. I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things. That D student isn't going to be an engineer, maybe we should do something to make sure he isn't stuck at McDonalds for the rest of his life.

I'm not fine with art and music getting cut. But i would be fine with sports being cut from SCHOOL budget. Let that E36 M3 be the community's burden directly, instead of taking away from school funding.

Sports teach no less than art and music. Maybe the community should support both of them and let the schools concentrate on more academic things. Edited to add: In most instances sports and art/music aren't going to add to anyone's ability to put food on the table. There are a lot of other thing that will. I would much rather see them teach those. Carpentry, electricity, welding, mechanics, computers, automotive repairs, plumbing, the list is endless. For every sports player or musician there are thousands of trades people. Why teach what almost no one does for a living.

I can get behind that. Just chaps my ass when i see art/music being cut so the school can pump up their sports program.

It has been shown that music helps with math. Kids need to be exposed to it all so that they have a chance at finding something that they like doing.

Just be sure to let your kids and any other young people that are in your life that college is not the only way to a good job, if we all would do this this whole mess would be a lot better.

"Skilled-trade" is as overbroad as "white-collar". Let's put to rest any notion that blue-collar, or any general description is more noble or stupid than any other. It is a statistical fact that as an average, income increases with education. But there are a lot of plumbers, metal workers, service technicians and what-have you with 6-figure incomes, and there's a lot of people with gaudy degrees who don't make E36 M3. So statistics only go so far.

Personally I rate personal fulfilment higher than income. That's why I cited the multiple intellegence book. If you enter a business that you're not inherently "intellegent" in, you're very likely to be unfulfilled and unhappy. In other words, if you're cut out to be an auto mechanic, you'd probably be better off doing that than accounting, and visa-versa.

I think that the core of Mike's message is that individually and as a society we are not well served by pointing our low-achievers at the trades. There's a ton of good to be had as a tradesman, and of course, it can also suck. It seems that Northern Europeans are more aware of this, and they put people on vocational tracks very early. That's a way that they end up with a very skilled workforce. If you get channeled into a trade at 13, only to find at 18 that you'd rather do something else, you still have that trade as a fallback position. In counties like Finland and Germany, you've got very strong economies, and even the unemployed are more likley to have saleable skills whereas I'm afraid that an awful lot of our unemployed aren't qualified to do much of anything.

I don't think work should be classified as blue or white collard, that's the problem, it should be classified as skilled or unskilled.

I've heard the argument from white collars that most blue collars have an easy job because they didn't go to school. OK, you go weld that stainless pipe which carries water to a chiller running over several million dollars worth of computer server racks and not mess up.

I've heard arguments from blue collars that most white collars have an easy job behind a computer typing away 8 hours a day. Ok, you come program the complexities of the real world into a high-fidelity real-time simulation...

Here's the crux, there are skilled and unskilled labor. If you don't have specialized knowledge about complex or unique systems which makes you indispensable, and you or a high school graduate could do your job (whether it's sitting behind a computer or working on an assembly line) then guess what, you're not skilled. I know for a fact that there are very few in this country who could perform my job, and yes it's behind a computer. But guess what, I also know there are very few people who can do the job of mechanics, welders, plumbers, electricians, arborists, etc. Why? Because most people aren't willing to work hard, they want the easy life, and all those jobs (mine included) require monumental effort. I work my brain as hard in a day as any mechanic works his body.

If you think 8 hours of work in a day is a normal work week, guess what, you're not working hard.

There, I've said my piece, and I agree with Mike Rowe, but the fundamental issue is that we don't have hard working people who want to take responsibility for a skill...

I spent 5 years and a lot of loan money at a very well respected college getting a chemistry degree tailored to an industry that was shipped to Mexico and the Caribbean. As good as the school name is on my diploma, I don't think it's opened one door for me by itself. I've worked house construction, road construction, and white collar jobs.

I still think my college years were well spent even though I won't ever use that degree again. I leaned how to focus and slog through miserable efforts and I refined my reasoning skills.

I agree that skilled tradesmen don't get near the respect they deserve. Pay can go either way - I've known welders that took home more than I did as plant manager and most days I would have traded jobs if I'd had the skills. Guys who work for someone else don't see half the hourly fee that's charged for their services because they're paying someone else to handle the business part of the business. Skill sets vary and often someone who's a good mechanic is a lousy accountant, and vice versa. It sucks from a monetary angle that someone pays &50/hr for your work, but you only get $20 of it - but there are times when it's a blessing to call it a day without worrying about the insurance, workers comp, tax filings, zoning compliance and rent payments that take up an owners time. I've played both roles, and both suck sometimes.

I agree that this country has been sold a false bill of goods about college education, but I won't say it's useless either. It amazes me how...capable...my dad and uncles are, no matter what you throw at them. They were all skilled tradesmen of one sort or another. I don't see that in anyone my age (35 currently.) It breaks my heart to go to China on business and see the tiny moped repair hovels sporting a milling machine, knowing that they MAKE the parts they need, not just install them - and that our country has lost that ability.

There aren't any easy answers. It's been too long and it's too far gone. Sadly, I see us slipping from our position as a world leader because we simply can't fend for ourselves anymore. And I'm not sure that can be changed.

And that REALLY breaks my heart.

ultraclyde wrote: There aren't any easy answers. It's been too long and it's too far gone. Sadly, I see us slipping from our position as a world leader because we simply can't fend for ourselves anymore. And I'm not sure that can be changed. And that REALLY breaks my heart.

IMO education - really GOOD education is key to America's future. China, India or whoever the low-cost producer du jour is will always work harder/longer than us. We work longer hours than practically any 1st world country, but when China is paying their workers 1/10 of what we pay ours (if that), the only way that we can compete is by working smart. But if the majority of our workforce is either underskilled, wrongly-skilled, or undermotivated, well this escalator's heading for the basement. A major problem is that our education system is not preparing people for this reality.

fifty wrote: Isn't this the same group of folks who 3 years ago grumbled about how much skilled tradesmen made at GM, Ford and Chrysler? Or were they not making enough?

i believe we were complaining that they were paid much more than they earned.

ultraclyde wrote: I spent 5 years and a lot of loan money at a very well respected college getting a chemistry degree tailored to an industry that was shipped to Mexico and the Caribbean. As good as the school name is on my diploma, I don't think it's opened one door for me by itself. I've worked house construction, road construction, and white collar jobs. I still think my college years were well spent even though I won't ever use that degree again. I leaned how to focus and slog through miserable efforts and I refined my reasoning skills. I agree that skilled tradesmen don't get near the respect they deserve. Pay can go either way - I've known welders that took home more than I did as plant manager and most days I would have traded jobs if I'd had the skills. Guys who work for someone else don't see half the hourly fee that's charged for their services because they're paying someone else to handle the business part of the business. Skill sets vary and often someone who's a good mechanic is a lousy accountant, and vice versa. It sucks from a monetary angle that someone pays &50/hr for your work, but you only get $20 of it - but there are times when it's a blessing to call it a day without worrying about the insurance, workers comp, tax filings, zoning compliance and rent payments that take up an owners time. I've played both roles, and both suck sometimes. I agree that this country has been sold a false bill of goods about college education, but I won't say it's useless either. It amazes me how...capable...my dad and uncles are, no matter what you throw at them. They were all skilled tradesmen of one sort or another. I don't see that in anyone my age (35 currently.) It breaks my heart to go to China on business and see the tiny moped repair hovels sporting a milling machine, knowing that they MAKE the parts they need, not just install them - and that our country has lost that ability. There aren't any easy answers. It's been too long and it's too far gone. Sadly, I see us slipping from our position as a world leader because we simply can't fend for ourselves anymore. And I'm not sure that can be changed. And that REALLY breaks my heart.

I am going to really agree with this. My step-father and uncles have long told me that many mechanics today are not mechanics, but parts-changers and lack the ability to really think through a problem. This again is directly laid on the door of our educational system which seeks uniformity, not experimentation, initiative, or inventiveness.

On the other hand, my youngest brother drove a forklift for years, my middle brother has been in landscaping as long as I can remember. Both did pretty damned well. In fact, as a licensed forklift operator my youngest brother made more an hour than either of us older brothers combined for quite some time. Nothing wrong with hard work.

REALLY STRONGLY dis-agree with the idea that college grads make more. I think if you actually were honest in viewing the statistics you would see that the percentage of college grads making "good" money is low and getting lower every year. I also think that the number of "blue collar" jobs- bus drivers, garbage men, mechanics, carpenters, painters, etc. that make more than your college grad and take home more of it is on the rise. It costs a fortune to go to college these days, and if you are not lucky enough to have had your parents sacrifice and save for you, then your going to be a victim of the student loan system. Sure, you get out of college and make $40K a year or more off the bat, but you are spending a huge chunk of that paying off your "education". To move ahead, you will need more education at more costs. If your lucky, the company pays for it, if not, then you are in debt again. ALL your college degree does is show an employer you can stick with something for 4 years and finish. They know they are still going to have to educate and train you because a degree in pretty much anything is useless in the actual workforce. It used to be that work experience counted towards or in place of a college degree, but again we as a society have been trained that you "need" a college education.

I wont get started on how badly many college grads mis-manage thier money, but I can say this- When I was growing up I watched my step-dad put $10 cash into his gas tank and get a cup of coffee. This obviously did not fill the tank, and I thought it was odd because he had the cash in hand to fill the tank or he could have put it on his card. When I asked him about it he told me all he needed for the week was $10 (about 10 gallons then) so why take the money that he might need for something else out of his pocket? And why put gas on a credit card and pay interest on it when all it is going to do is sit in the tank? I guess we thought differently about money then since we never had much of it, but thats a lesson I thought of today as I put gas in my truck.

Just to throw out some other angles- I remember my uncle who never had an actual job as near as I could tell. He did contract work for various builders, bushhogged feilds, painted houses and barns, did home repairs, and basically anything that people would pay him to do. He is a very skilled man and he never seemed to worry about money at all. One day he might be wiring a series of apartment buildings, the next he would fire up the tractor and haul hay or stake tobacco. No matter what, he always had work to do, and people in the community who payed to have things done knew they could count on him to do what he said he would do. Today we would probably call this "temp work" and think there was something wrong with him and that he could not hold a job or something. How can we as a society be so short-sighted?

China is another subject that I could go into great discussion over. My wife is Chinese and she was sold the same bill of goods- get a degree and go work and you will be a success. Well that did work for her, and she was very fortunate to get her Masters at the exact right time and make some very smart and well-timed decisions, but she has seen through her friends how little a degree can matter and how hard it can be to even get a job, let alone a good job when there are literally hundreds of applicants with your same degree, with the same experience, applying for the same job. With no skillset and only a piece of paper saying you learned something there is nothing to set you apart for thousands just exactly like you.

Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: It has been shown that music helps with math. Kids need to be exposed to it all so that they have a chance at finding something that they like doing.

As I mentioned earlier, I studied music in university. And my fellow musicians were either great at math or completely incompetent, there was no middle ground. It was interesting to see. Oh, and I worked on a pure math degree at the same time I was studying music. There's definitely some crossover, although I can't explain how the mental wiring works.

But it's the second sentence that's the important one. Kids need to be able to try everything. Almost everyone I went to university with (I'm not saying university to be a snob, there's a bigger difference between the role of a college and a university in Canada) changed plans mid-stream. And this was in an education system that had 13 years of primary and secondary education, so the average freshman was a year older than the norm. Even then, most of my friends ended up doing something different after being exposed to a wider range of options. Heck, I took a complete left turn upon graduation and then again five years later. My parents never put any pressure on me as to what I should do, even though they both were college profs.

If we expose kids to everything, they'll figure out what suits them. And they'll be better at it, because they'll be interested.

I'm glad some light is being shed on this, it does seem like when you're in HS you are taught that the dumb dropouts are the only ones that should find a Voc school. It seems this has led to "professional" contractors being primarily high school dropouts that have limited business education and less professional ethics. I deal with a lot of these contractors at work. Some are good, many are terrible and a real PITA.

I like working with my hands and I hate to pay someone to do work at my house or on my car. I like being a white collar worker (engineer) during the day and work on my own stuff as much as I can nights and weekends. I talk to a lot of co-workers though that have zero clue on how their car works or why their toilet backs up...

One of the problems with our university system is that kids go in at 18. Who knows what they want to do for the rest of their life when they are that age? I strongly believe in having a system which requires two years of public service for all 18 year olds. Military, peace corps, conservation corps, whatever. You do a lot of growing up in those two years, and this could be a way that would help people get a grip on what they want to do with their lives before they go too far down a single path. I can't believe that kids can be or could be put into vocational schools when they are 14. I believe that they all deserve (as Keith mentioned) a nice, well-rounded liberal education- art, science, math, language, and yes, shop. I also agree that I'd rather have music and art than athletics- I was a pretty good high school wrestler, but I'm not sure how it aided my academic life. These should be 'club' type activities funded outside of the educational system.

Lots of digressing.

I have a lot to say about this, but I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts.

I worked as a garbage man, in construction and a lot of other ad-hoc jobs while in school to earn money to pay for tuition. I still remember the day the callus started falling off of my hands after I graduated. It was weird. The calluses are back now, but it is a lot different since I got them doing things I want to to versus things I had to do in order to pay the bills. The biggest things I learned in school were:

How to fix my car, since I needed it to get to work and couldn't afford to pay somebody else to do it.

How to go to work, even when I don't want to because I have to pay the bills

How to do a bit more than what the job requires. When you're freelancing or working per-diem, that's what gets you the next day's work.

That sometimes you have to work with people you don't like. It's alright not to like them, but you have to be professional and get along with them.

The biggest takeaway from my school days is that I really had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. There are a ton of kids like that, who just kind of fall into school and try to figure it out while they are there. Our focus on getting higher education is good, don't get me wrong there. However, the method we are using to "prepare" our children for what happens at that point of their lives is flawed.

Good tradesmen, wether carpenter, mechanics, masons or welders, often are college educated. My father in law is a finish carpenter and has a business degree from Oakland University. His ex partner has multiple degrees from U of M and Ferris State.

I do not have a college degree, have been a GM Master technician, parts pro, store manager, professional babysitter and lackey. I make a decent living, and my pay is infinitely more consistent than the FILs. Both of our pay is lower than where our professions were 20 years ago.

Customers value us less, management pays us less, the world needs us now more than ever to keep things running.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: One of the problems with our university system is that kids go in at 18. Who knows what they want to do for the rest of their life when they are that age? I strongly believe in having a system which requires two years of public service for all 18 year olds. Military, peace corps, conservation corps, whatever. You do a lot of growing up in those two years, and this could be a way that would help people get a grip on what they want to do with their lives before they go too far down a single path.

I did something like that. Thanks to the extra year of high school plus taking a year off before starting, I was 20 when I started university. For a lot of people at the school, university was just high school in a different setting and I think their education suffered accordingly. I had a different perspective, even though I wasn't doing public service during that year off.

miatame wrote: It does seem like when you're in HS you are taught that the dumb dropouts are the only ones that should find a Voc school. It seems this has led to "professional" contractors being primarily high school dropouts that have limited business education and less professional ethics. I deal with a lot of these contractors at work. Some are good, many are terrible and a real PITA.

I've seen evidence of this too, and it doesn't bode well. With our whole society steering the best and brightest away from these jobs, the stereotype of blue collar work being for underachievers starts to become self-fulfilling.

here is the reason why there are no tradespeople.

When you are 18, do you picture yourself as the guy with all this stuff or as the service/tradesguy guy who comes around to maintain his stuff?

All you know for sure is that the plumber does not live here.

The ironic thing is that as we get older, the poster turns out to be a lie and that acquisition of stuff for display is not as fulfilling as we thought it would be when we were 18!

I don't think that any of the time I've spent in college was wasted. Many jobs require degrees now. The old "work your way up" E36 M3 simply doesn't happen that often anymore.