I'm seeing a 4th gen Camaro with a crapped-out 3.8, and was thinking why not upgrade to the newer FWD blocks? Only question is, what is one to do for an all-motor build? I would think starting with the 3.9L LZ9 is a good place, but am not familiar with people do to move these engiens up in power levels (besides forced induction)
Side question: is the LV3 EcoTec3 engine starting to get swap-friendly?
The LFX out of the Camaro or Cadillac is being swapped into Miatae, so the road has been paved as far as engine management.
Pete
RWD and FWD blocks are totally different. Can't interchange.
The 3800 is a 90 degree block and the 3900 is the 60 degree. The newer 3.6 4 cam may be too wide, measure carefully. The current trans probably won't work either. Maybe a motor/trans from a Caddy CTS? For all the effort of a swap like this, a V8 or forced induction 3800 can have more power for less money and effort.
Okay here goes...
The 3800 is not a 60 degree. It does share the trans bolt pattern with 60 degree engines. 3800 is Buick v6.
The 3400, 3500, and 3900 are similar architecture. They are 60 degree.
If you want to use one in a red application, I suggest the trans from a 3800 powered camaro. It is a wct5 and fairly strong.
A 3500 can be run off of 3400 electronics and throttle body (3400 are cable, 3500 and 3900 are dbw). You will also need a new crank sensor and mount and encoder wheel to run the 3500.
There are cams available for all of these engines. Be aware the later 3500 and 3900 habe variable valve timing and are more difficult to keep all functionality.
The 3900 is a little different but makes the most power.
If you have any specific questions, let me know.
I stuffed a fwd 3400 in my rx7. I also gave support to dusterbd for his 3400 swap into a miata.
Curtis said:RWD and FWD blocks are totally different. Can't interchange.
This is true of the 3800. Not so with the 3x00 engines.
You might actually be able to do a fwd 3800 into a red application as well if you are making your own mounts. Not sure where the starter is on fwd 3800 engines. If on engine side, you can do it. If on trans side, not so much.
FYI, the 1996-up 3800 Series 2 and 3 V6s use the same block, no longer fwd vs rwd blocks, that was the series 1 engines. Accessories and intakes differ between the two, but not the block/heads. Supercharged do have different heads and internals though.
81cpcamaro said:FYI, the 1996-up 3800 Series 2 and 3 V6s use the same block, no longer fwd vs rwd blocks, that was the series 1 engines. Accessories and intakes differ between the two, but not the block/heads. Supercharged do have different heads and internals though.
I agree with this. We swapped a FWD 3800 sc series 2 into a tr7 with a V6 Camaro t5, using 3800 Camaro oil pan and exhaust manifolds.
From 93 to 95 the 3.4 v6 was the base engine in the camaro.
The L67 (FWD supercharged 3800) was pretty common in offroad buggies of W.E. ROCK in the mid-late '00s, there's still a few running around today. Tight package, with a lot of power. They all used autos though. The "Shortstar" V6 from the Olds Aurora had a run there for a bit too. Just about everyone has an LS something nowadays though.
The GM Metric bolt pattern, was used on a few transmissions, thanks mostly to the prevalence of the Iron Duke and 2.8l V6 in AMC's bastard children, namely Jeeps. Then there were similar transmissions that were also used in other vehicles like Toyotas and Mopars, so often, the proper bell housing is all you need* to swap, a "better" transmission onto a Metric GM engine.
Sometimes you can bolt the trans directly to the engine. Like the Jeep 904 and its variants like the 30RH were a common transmissions in L67 powered offroad buggies since it uses the Metric GM pattern too.
*You'll potentially need spacers, to redrill a flex plate, or custom clutch/pressure plate depending on what you're mixing and matching.
wvumtnbkr said:Okay here goes...
The 3800 is not a 60 degree. It does share the trans bolt pattern with 60 degree engines. 3800 is Buick v6.
The 3400, 3500, and 3900 are similar architecture. They are 60 degree.
If you want to use one in a red application, I suggest the trans from a 3800 powered camaro. It is a wct5 and fairly strong.
A 3500 can be run off of 3400 electronics and throttle body (3400 are cable, 3500 and 3900 are dbw). You will also need a new crank sensor and mount and encoder wheel to run the 3500.
There are cams available for all of these engines. Be aware the later 3500 and 3900 habe variable valve timing and are more difficult to keep all functionality.
The 3900 is a little different but makes the most power.
If you have any specific questions, let me know.
I stuffed a fwd 3400 in my rx7. I also gave support to dusterbd for his 3400 swap into a miata.
So can I pick your brain on the Camaro WCT5 transmission to a fwd block. I understand the starter location is different, but I've also read that a 2.2L s10 has the fwd starter location. So do you use a S10 bell housing with a 3800 Camaro WCT5 transmission? What clutch and flywheel? Can it be done with a 3.4, 3.5, and 3.9?
Curtis said:RWD and FWD blocks are totally different. Can't interchange.
The 4th gen Camaro with the 3800 (which is not a Chevy 60 degree, it's a Buick 90 degree) used a FWD engine block. Buick did not cast any "RWD" block series II/III 3800s.
The Series II has a shorter deck height than the 231 and "Series 1" 3800. Shorter deck, shorter rods, lower deck height pistons. Along with a whole lot of other improvements.
bigben said:wvumtnbkr said:Okay here goes...
The 3800 is not a 60 degree. It does share the trans bolt pattern with 60 degree engines. 3800 is Buick v6.
The 3400, 3500, and 3900 are similar architecture. They are 60 degree.
If you want to use one in a red application, I suggest the trans from a 3800 powered camaro. It is a wct5 and fairly strong.
A 3500 can be run off of 3400 electronics and throttle body (3400 are cable, 3500 and 3900 are dbw). You will also need a new crank sensor and mount and encoder wheel to run the 3500.
There are cams available for all of these engines. Be aware the later 3500 and 3900 habe variable valve timing and are more difficult to keep all functionality.
The 3900 is a little different but makes the most power.
If you have any specific questions, let me know.
I stuffed a fwd 3400 in my rx7. I also gave support to dusterbd for his 3400 swap into a miata.
So can I pick your brain on the Camaro WCT5 transmission to a fwd block. I understand the starter location is different, but I've also read that a 2.2L s10 has the fwd starter location. So do you use a S10 bell housing with a 3800 Camaro WCT5 transmission? What clutch and flywheel? Can it be done with a 3.4, 3.5, and 3.9?
You just use the entire stock 3800 powered camaro trans including bell housing. You use a 2.2 s10 clutch and flywheel with stock starter.
That's it.
The 3400 and 3500 should bolt up the same. The 3900 MAY be different.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
Thanks. That's an easy recipe for a swap. I'm looking at using it in a Locost, so I should be able to work around any other packaging differences.
I don’t know how active this group is anymore but the websites has tons of information and can answer just about any question: http://www.60degreev6.com
So i have a very odd idea that i cannot find any info on. Im looking to put a 3.5 out of a 06 impala into a 85 Camaro. My problem is i cant find information on a flywheel for the motor.
IIRC it's the same as a 2.2 if you want manual trans. If automatic, it should all be a bolt-in using 4th gen 3800 parts. (The clutch actuation may be another story)
If manual, you'll be wanting a trans from a 3800-engined 4th gen anyway, so you get the starter pocket on the correct side, and the torque arm mounting provision on the tailhousing. 3rd-gen V6 and 3.4l 4th-gens had RWD blocks with the starter on the right, 3800 4th-gens had FWD blocks with the starter on the left. (There is a huge difference between 3.4l and 3400, and 3.8l and 3800. Like the difference between 302 and 5.0, they changed the name because the engine is different.)
Yes it's weird that you need bits from a Buick 90 degree engine for a Chevy swap, but the Buick motor is a front wheel drive block, and GM was nice in that aside from a couple outliers, all FWD blocks had the same bellhousing pattern. I'd LIKE to say they all had the same bolt pattern on the back of the crank, too, but I'm not 100% certain of that.
The V6 section of thirdgen.org is still popular:
I was hoping to use the stock t5 thats behing the 2.8 bu i never thought about starter position being different
Funny enough, I recently found a Camaro WC T5 with a fresh clutch and flywheel- but I have no engine to bolt to it. Is it just Gen 3 3800s and up? Are there other choices?
Jimmddaniel said:I was hoping to use the stock t5 thats behing the 2.8 bu i never thought about starter position being different
With that trans, you may be lucky and it has starter pockets on both sides.
You can not use a 4th gen v6 bell housing. The 4th gen v6 wc t5 is actually a Ford pattern on the trans side. Your trans is a Chevy pattern.
Jimmddaniel said:I was hoping to use the stock t5 thats behing the 2.8 bu i never thought about starter position being different
To be honest, I wonder if hitting the bellhousing with a Sawzall for clearance wouldn't be good enough.
If the 3500 is a "second generation" engine (destroked 3900, not a slightly bigger 3400 like the first series) then you'll have to get fabby for exhaust too. The 3100/3400/3500(1) shared the exhaust bolt pattern with the 2.8/3.1/3.4 but the 3500(2)/3900 moved the bolts around.
Thsi is starting to sound promising again
Does anyone know if a 2.8 3.1 3.4 flywheel can bolt to a 3.5 or be modified to work?
Here is a 3.4 RWD engine beside a 2.8 transverse engine (Fiero). I used the 3.4 almost complete and added the nice Fiero cast alloy valve covers that just took a little bit of finagling (the intake on the 3.4 is less restrictive).
Many have used RWD F body engine in Fieros so there is no huge issue with starter mounting, but sorry, I don't recall the details - it involves a template and drilling the block.
Final product prior to installation - pretty compact package. It was going into an old sports car in in-line configuration with a WCT5 behind it.
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