GM’s Ultium electric platform

In reply to STM317 :

I feel the same way. That's the way I'd rather buy. 
 

But it's not how it plays out in real life. People complain constantly about the dealership model, but they buy. It works. 
 

The dealers I work for own about 30 different dealerships across a dozen or more brands. They sell over 2000 cars per month. They do tons of online sales and would love to change the model, but other things they have tried simply don't sell as many cars. 
 

It's like politics. We all say we hate negative campaigning. But the bottom line is- it works. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

You know people (not including those that unnecessarily pay the full inflated MSRP and buy every warrenty/protection up-sell add-on) who actually enjoys their multiple hours of uncomfortable mental manipulation at the dealership, simply because of a few trivial physical niceties? The dealerships I've been to are only comfortable when you're looking at cars. As soon at you're negotiating or signing, the chairs are less comfortable, and the hospitality is less efficient... All carefully crafted for a reason.

The traditional dealership model is complete crap,  but has still not substantially changed over time, as you claim will  'clearly' happen naturally. This is purely because it is being heavily protected from free-market (manufacturer direct-to-customer) competition by powerful lobby groups and weak politicians. Taken in this context, the traditional dealership does need to be killed, and has never been necessary.

Yes, of course high-pressure sales tactics work and move product. That's why there are multiple industries built almost entirely around them, that wouldn't otherwise be able to exist in their current capacity without them. That doesn't make a good thing deserving of any of the special protections they get either though, regardless of the additional 'jobs' it unscrupulously provides.

In reply to Driven5 :

I know exactly zero people who say they enjoy that. 
 

I have also seen the actual spreadsheets showing sales dropping significantly when a dealership tried to eliminate it. 
 

We say we hate it, but we still buy. 

Driven5 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Yeah, I think trying to meet modern emissions is just too big a hurdle for niche builders. Sidestepping all that lowers the bar considerably. 

With the current existence of emissions certified crates, I don't really see that as the biggest hurdle to small volume vehicle production right now. The bigger issue in my mind is that you can still only side-step any part of the full compliment of modern safety standards if it's an officially licensed (by the IP holder), nearly exact (dimensionally and visually, interior and exterior) replica of a production vehicle more than 25 years old. Until that gets broadened, I don't really see where this opens up much in the way of niche builder options, as it will then just reverts to the same long-standing kit-car status and requirements.

That being said, this is still pretty exciting if GM puts this out as an eCrate at a reasonable (ie their noted <$100/kWh) price.

That'll happen when automatic computational analysis of a structural design (along with standardized belt/airbag systems) is accepted from the DOT to prove "crashworthiness" and other "compliance with federal standards".  I think, though, that'll take a combined effort in industry, regulatory houses, and in the passage of new laws.

In reply to Driven5 :

If you owned a business and had a proven method, would you be ok with changing that method because there was a "nicer" method if it meant a 20% reduction in sales?

Most people would not be ok with that. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

See my edits regarding the effectiveness of the sales tactics. Of course sales will fall with other models that don't severely manipulate and take advantage of the customers... The fact that they so brazenly get away with, and are even defended for, doing so is the real problem.

In reply to Driven5 :

I saw your edit. That's why I asked. 
 

Woukd you take a 20% hit in sales to be "nicer"?

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry, I'm a serial-eidtor.

No, I wouldn't run an unscrupulous business model to gain an additional 20% in sales. If my product or service can't stand on it's own without use of such dishonesty, and disdain for the customer, it doesn't deserve to succeed in the first place.

In reply to Driven5 :

That's kind of a backwards response, and not actually an answer to my question. I wouldn't start an unscrupulous business either.
 

My question was if you would CHANGE an existing method that had worked well for an extended period of time.

 I think we could debate for a long time what is unscrupulous and what is not.  It's standard practice, and not illegal or restricted.  
 

If we are gonna call all businesses that are unpleasant or function with some negative aspects immoral or unscrupulous, we can probably eliminate most industries.  How about we start with politics?  Social media?  Childcare?  Medical?

Let me ask it this way... If your boss came to you and said, "We can offer our customers a better experience, and I think it will reap rewards.  However, the business will not sustain the cost right now.  I need you to voluntarily take a 20% cut in your salary so we can make the changes."  Would you be ok with that?

I'm going to invoke the T-word, simply because it is an alternative model that is out there :)

You can currently go into a Tesla showroom, touch the shiny cars, drive the shiny cars and take delivery of a freshly detailed shiny car. You just skip the "are you going to buy TODAY? We only have one left!" junk. The purchase itself is a matter of picking some options and buying. It has all the attributes SVreX is saying people want but without the attributes they don't.  Dealerships aren't an option for any other automaker, they're stuck with the legacy model. This is unrelated to EVs, of course.

I have also worked at a dealership - I was in used car prep, but I got to know some of the sales people. I feel no special need to artificially preserve that job description.

Honestly, I don't see it as the dealership's fault. I see it as the consumer's fault. 
 

FaceBook steals vast quantities of personal data for financial gain. Why?  Because consumers allow it. 

Medical billing is designed to never tell the consumer what the price of their service is, only to code things in every way possible to extract huge amounts through coding processes from insurance companies (and ultimately consumers).  Why?  Because consumers allow it. 

My industry (construction) has established pricing methods designed to falsely present artificially low prices at the bidding stage, with intent to jack the prices later through change orders. Why? Because consumers allow it (and virtually demand it). 
 

Every industry has its unpleasant and unsavory aspects, and they are driven by the bottom line. That doesn't negate entire industries or make them "unscrupulous". It's just how it works sometimes. 
 

Can things be improved?  Absolutely.  I don't believe the answer is to throw out the baby with the bath water for an entire industry.  

Driven5 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Yeah, I think trying to meet modern emissions is just too big a hurdle for niche builders. Sidestepping all that lowers the bar considerably. 

With the current existence of emissions certified crates, I don't really see that as the biggest hurdle to small volume vehicle production right now. The bigger issue in my mind is that you can still only side-step any part of the full compliment of modern safety standards if it's an officially licensed (by the IP holder), nearly exact (dimensionally and visually, interior and exterior) replica of a production vehicle more than 25 years old. Until that gets broadened, I don't really see where this opens up much in the way of niche builder options, as it will then just reverts to the same long-standing kit-car status and requirements.

That being said, this is still pretty exciting if GM puts this out as an eCrate at a reasonable (ie their noted <$100/kWh) price.

What you may have missed - everyone does unless they read the EOs - is that those current emissions certified crates are only certified if installed in a 1995 or older vehicle. All the really hard stuff related to the evap system is avoided, and the LT1 is certified to a level that's now 4 years old. The LS3 is based on an 11 year old car. So there aren't really any emissions certified crates available to build a new car from.

Of course that's not the only obstacle to a small niche automaker, but it's a big one. Emissions are HARD. Crash testing is something that can be modeled more and more accurately via computer so it's becoming easier. But even if crash testing remains difficult, removing the emissions barrier only makes niche production easier.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yes, you are right. I suspect that just as GM has mimicked Tesla's model in designing this platform, manufacturers may be copying Tesla's model for their concierge showrooms. I hope so. 
 

But I hope no one copies Tesla's manufacturing quality assurance, their upside down stock value balance sheet,  or their financial model of investing in bitcoin and space exploration. 
 

Tesla is ground breaking. Many should learn from them. They still have plenty of things that could be called "unscrupulous ".

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Honestly, I don't see it as the dealership's fault. I see it as the consumer's fault. 
 

FaceBook steals vast quantities of personal data for financial gain. Why?  Because consumers allow it. 

Medical billing is designed to never tell the consumer what the price of their service is, only to code things in every way possible to extract huge amounts through coding processes from insurance companies (and ultimately consumers).  Why?  Because consumers allow it. 

My industry (construction) has established pricing methods designed to falsely present artificially low prices at the bidding stage, with intent to jack the prices later through change orders. Why? Because consumers allow it (and virtually demand it). 
 

Every industry has its unpleasant and unsavory aspects, and they are driven by the bottom line. That doesn't negate entire industries or make them "unscrupulous". It's just how it works sometimes. 
 

Can things be improved?  Absolutely.  I don't believe the answer is to throw out the baby with the bath water for an entire industry.  

In your examples, the only one where consumers have a choice is construction - and you can bet that my estimator wife would not fall for the change order trick :) There's no real alternative to Facebook if that's what you want. There is certainly no alternative to medical and rarely a chance to shop around.

If you give consumers the option of all the good parts of a dealership - shiny cars, a feeling of being pampered, etc - without high pressure sales, it's possible they will respond. Unless the dealership down the street with THE #1 DISCOUNTER OF AUTOMOBILES on the front windows manages to do better, which I suspect they will because people do love to think they're saving money. Me, I never want to have to deal with a car sales person again.

Ok. We agree. Dealerships need improvement. 
 

Let's get back to discussing the Ultium platform.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

ALL construction professionals "fall for" the change order trick. It's the universe we live in. 
 

Anyone that thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yes, you are right. I suspect that just as GM has mimicked Tesla's model in designing this platform, manufacturers may be copying Tesla's model for their concierge showrooms. I hope so. 
 

But I hope no one copies Tesla's manufacturing quality assurance, their upside down stock value balance sheet,  or their financial model of investing in bitcoin and space exploration. 
 

Tesla is ground breaking. Many should learn from them. They still have plenty of things that could be called "unscrupulous ".

Tesla doesn't invest in space exploration. There's just a guy in common.

Bitcoin, well, don't ask me to explain that one. The stock valuation is due to the market. All the automakers would love to have that problem :)

And personally, my Tesla had better quality assurance than my Dodge 2500. I've heard the stories, but nobody bothers to mention small problems like the fact that Ford is recalling a tens of thousands of Explorers for a second time to replace a part that they replaced on a previous recall. Tesla gets the press but I'm not convinced they're an outlier in this regard.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

They are not an outlier. But they don't necessarily have the systems or resources in place to handle the problem. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

BTW, I disagree about consumers not having a choice. 
 

Consumers never had to give their personal info to FB. They accepted a particular business model because they were too cheap to pay for other options. 
 

Medical billing never should have been allowed to lack transparency like it does. But consumers wanted it to be invisible, and for someone else to care for them and their medical costs. 
 

These are choices consumers are making. And business is smart enough to take advantage of it. 
 

...or unscrupulous enough. Depending on how you look at it. 
 

Consumers, it's all their fault ;)

Well, this thread got completely derailed. Maybe we should just start again and if No Longer Here throws another hand grenade over the fence, we just ignore it.

Keith Tanner said:

Consumers, it's all their fault ;)

Right lol 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

It did, and it's partly my fault. I apologize. 
 

There's lots of stuff that needs fixing in the world!!

Now, about that electric platform...

Driven5 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Yeah, I think trying to meet modern emissions is just too big a hurdle for niche builders. Sidestepping all that lowers the bar considerably. 

With the current existence of emissions certified crates, I don't really see that as the biggest hurdle to small volume vehicle production right now. The bigger issue in my mind is that you can still only side-step any part of the full compliment of modern safety standards if it's an officially licensed (by the IP holder), nearly exact (dimensionally and visually, interior and exterior) replica of a production vehicle more than 25 years old. Until that gets broadened, I don't really see where this opens up much in the way of niche builder options, as it will then just reverts to the same long-standing kit-car status and requirements.

That being said, this is still pretty exciting if GM puts this out as an eCrate at a reasonable (ie their noted <$100/kWh) price.

Low volume manufacturers don't have to meet crash standards as long as they build fewer than 325 cars a year. Emissions were killing them though because they still had to meet those standards and there were very few engine packages available to them. A modular EV drivetrain eliminates the niche manufacturer's biggest hurdle. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can come up with. 

I could see a company like Flying Miata building a ground-up electric roadster much like their Miata offerings. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Ok. We agree. Dealerships need improvement. 
 

Let's get back to discussing the Ultium platform.

When will they build one into an EV minivan? I'd like to unload the GC before it explodes into a million pieces like Chrysler products are wont to do...  

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

Driven5 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Yeah, I think trying to meet modern emissions is just too big a hurdle for niche builders. Sidestepping all that lowers the bar considerably. 

With the current existence of emissions certified crates, I don't really see that as the biggest hurdle to small volume vehicle production right now. The bigger issue in my mind is that you can still only side-step any part of the full compliment of modern safety standards if it's an officially licensed (by the IP holder), nearly exact (dimensionally and visually, interior and exterior) replica of a production vehicle more than 25 years old. Until that gets broadened, I don't really see where this opens up much in the way of niche builder options, as it will then just reverts to the same long-standing kit-car status and requirements.

That being said, this is still pretty exciting if GM puts this out as an eCrate at a reasonable (ie their noted <$100/kWh) price.

Low volume manufacturers don't have to meet crash standards as long as they build fewer than 325 cars a year. Emissions were killing them though because they still had to meet those standards and there were very few engine packages available to them. A modular EV drivetrain eliminates the niche manufacturer's biggest hurdle. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can come up with. 

I could see a company like Flying Miata building a ground-up electric roadster much like their Miata offerings. 

It would be a really big step for us to move from modifying cars to doing from-scratch production. But boy would that be cool.

 I was thinking of Alpha. A nice modular setup makes cars like this possible.