I typically like having an instructor in my car. I find a more experienced racer is almost always more help than hindrance. I can run a safe lap at any track with any passing rules without, but in my imagination at least, I generally learn (and go) faster with an instructor. Most of the ones I've had were very helpful. Feedback like "floor it here, there's more traction than you think" or "stay off the outside curb, it's off camber" is really nice to have. I've had a few that didn't help me much because they didn't really have anything to say. And I think I've had a couple that I'd probably have been better off without.

One not-fantastic experience was at Mosport. I didn't know anything about the track before I got there, and I think the instructor scared me. Between the questions about my repair budget, and suggesting that going off in some corners can get expensive quickly, I think I slowed down everywhere. Two days there and I think I know the line (mostly maybe?), but I don't think I made a single lap to be proud of. I didn't have a timer, and I doubt I'll be going back within the next decade or more, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. But I would have loved to have felt better about the track. Instruction was good from a knowledge standpoint, but it didn't help my confidence.

The best experiences I've had were either with pros or a couple good friends that really know what they're talking about, when I had clear problems and goals. If you collect and review GPS data, that's probably the single most helpful tool I've found, particularly when paired with a professional's coaching. I guess the bottom line is a proper, professional racing school is probably a step above club level instruction, and you stand to gain a lot more when you can spell out your goals and expectations.

Anybody have any advice or experience they'd like to share?

The process of learning the track can be detrimental to the process. If you have never driven the track before, just trying to remember where you are and which gear to be in can overload your thinking process about the line.

When I knew I would be doing an event at Sebring, I used the I Racing simulator to learn the track. It made a huge difference to the experience when I did drive it. I never felt lost on track and always knew what was coming. My instructor said I was the first rookie driver that he ever had that consistently turned in late to every corner. Much safer starting point for going faster.

Personally I don't see my responsibility as an instructor as getting you faster. That's not my job or my main thrust.

Here's how I see my job

1 Keep you and your car safe

2 Make sure you have fun

3 Teach you the track and the line

That's it. I'm not a race coach and I'm not going to pore over data with you looking for tenths of seconds. Yes, I can give you info about the track and where to turn, brake, etc.

That's a whole lot different from what a race coach is going to do...

As an instructor teaching someone with experience who had zero laps at a venue - it's a waste of time until they know where the road goes. I typically ask them if they mind riding along with me for a few laps (or if no passenger seat in my race car... to drive theirs gingerly in a lower run group). Then do a check-off ride along and set them loose to go learn it for a session. There isn't anything that can be taught to someone who can drive but doesn't know where the road goes except maybe some skills for learning new layouts faster. To that end... find or copy a line, flow it like a river and let the car tell you what it needs, throw the car around to test the traction. Choose your escape routes, find the runoff... and then build speed from the corner leading to the longest speed area (not always straight) and work your way back to the shortest. Then, drive around offline as quickly as you can and test for grip, unexpected camber changes, etc.

When I would be racing at a new track I'd always try to get out in a car or even take my bicycle around the thing for a few laps the evening before AM practice. Then get on someone's ass in P1 and follow them. Anything to build a base of laps before qualifying.

When I instruct, I start off with a 1-1 discussion with my student after the driver meeting -- I ask about previous experience, what his/her goals are for the day, level-set with how we are going to communicate on the intercom, etc. I lay out that we are going to begin and end each session with 2-way feedback: Here's what I want you to work on in this session. Here's what you did well, here's what I want to work on in the next session. Now you tell me how you felt it went-- are we good?

Most of the people that sign up in Novice have done 0-3 HPDEs, and taking time to explain to them how the day is going to go really helps. I text them my number so that we can find each other at any time. We enter the track here, we come off here, if you're pressured by traffic we're going to pull through the pits and re-enter clean track. Don't take for granted the basic etiquette that the other 70% of the people there know. It's easy to forget that the whole scene is sensory overload for newbies.

My experience with students has run the full spectrum, but most interactions have been really positive. When they want to get signed off I tell them that I will be dropping into their session in my car and observing. In one case I rescinded a sign off because despite doing 3 HPDEs and demonstrating proficiency when I was in the car, he didn't put it together alone.

I had another guy that I had to kick out of the nest because it was his 14th HPDE with an instructor. He was wound tight like I was a proctor watching him take an exam. I told him we were going to do a lead/follow and to go on out and make a couple laps. I dropped in a ways behind him and he drove a tidy line without the pressure of having an instructor. He relaxed and had a great day, just needed a nudge. (I told him I would get back in the car at any point in any session upon his request.)

Just set expectations with your instructor and have a good time. You're the customer.

I don't instruct. I have been a successful student, though, and had many different instructors. I shanghai them in the paddock and get them to come out with me in solo groups, if I have to.

There were one or two that really didn't have the personality for the job. But really, only one or two. That's rare.

The rest knew how to listen as well as talk. So, at times I have tactfully requested they do more of one thing and less of another, if they feel it's safe, and explain that with past instructors we had found x, y, and z were the teaching techniques that I absorbed most readily.

Also, I have found that every instructor knows how to do things I don't, so if they only teach me one new thing the whole weekend, that's one more club I have in the bag, even if I don't improve the particular shot I was obsessing about at the time.

I once ran an HPDE with a club I had never run before and since I was new,required a ride with an instructor. He drove and was going to show me the line. I never mentioned that I had thousands of laps around Lime Rock. As we started, he said, what is wrong with your tires? My reply was "Nothing, they are Hoosiers and need a lap to warm up" So we took a couple laps at moderate speed while he explained the "correct" line. On the last lap I said that the line is fine at 50mph but changes at 80. He then asked if I had driven Lime Rock before. Yes several times. He then said," Why are we out here ?". "Club said I had to, they never asked if I had any experience."

Only time I ever rode with an instructor.

being good at something does not necessarily make you good at teaching that same something. (and, more rarely, you can be good at teaching something without being good at it yourself).

teaching is a skill in its own right.

docwyte wrote: Personally I don't see my responsibility as an instructor as getting you faster. That's not my job or my main thrust.

I think there's a responsibility to get people faster safely. That doesn't mean that I'm going to pore over GPS data, as you say, but I can't teach someone about the benefits and dangers of lift-throttle oversteer if they're still loafing through a corner at 3/10ths. They need to get to that point where the car is starting to behave like a car at the limit, and that often requires a lot of encouragement (brake later, get on the gas, go go go). I had a couple of instructors along the way who really pushed me to go faster, and I'm grateful for them. And those are my favorite students, where you can tell the talent is there but there's a confidence/trust/fear thing holding them back. I've had a couple of students I wasn't very fond of, in both cases it was because they were there for the wrong reasons. One just wanted to see what his car could do, the other was dragged there by his friend because he kept buying really expensive sports cars and never used them. Neither of those guys wanted to learn.

I'm sure I've told my bad instructing story before. PCA event, I was a solid intermediate student at the time but it was my first time with this club so they dropped me into the novice group with an instructor. Nice guy, but kept telling me to back off the 911s because once they got their tires warmed up they were gonna pull away anyway Then he took me out in his 968 and promptly put us backwards into a concrete wall. I couldn't find him for the next session because he was dealing with his wrecked car so I just went out solo, then he came over later and dressed me down for breaking protocol. I didn't learn much that day.

Seeing how HPDE instructors are generally just whoever has a bit of experience that is willing to put in some time for it, I'm guessing there's plenty of bad instructor stories out there. Here's mine from a few years back:

Long-time autocrosser (like 10+ years of heavy autocrossing), but relatively new on track. I still knew how a car handled, just not as familiar with it at track speed. Instructor is a guy I kind of know from autocrossing, not very pleasant and widely regarded as a whiner. We get in and go. Grumpily chews my ear off the ENTIRE time we're on track, trying to comment and direct every single muscle twitch. I can't even really process what's going on he's talking so much. Also directing me on a bad line (in some fairness, I think he normally does higher HP RWD cars, I'm in the Prelude). Probably the single most unpleasant experience I've had on track. We get back in, I think he thinks I shouldn't even be on track (Nothing 'bad' happened, it just wasn't how he would drive it). Whether he had a moment of clarity or didn't want to ride with me or what, I lucked out and got a different instructor the next session. Had a fun session, learned a bit, and I think I even got signed off to the next level at that event.

I think it's all just part of doing track stuff.

A lot depends on the club. The club I instruct with keeps very high standards for our instructors. All of us go through check rides and role play with other istructors to make sure they can handle themselves and provide useful instruction. We also have an annual class with Ross Bently to constantly improve our techniques. We ask students for feedback and relay that feedback the instructors; good and not so good. Not all groups are like this.

And if you aren't happy with your instructor, chat with them and ask them if they can take a different approach. If not, go talk to the chief instructor and see if you can swap with someone. Most groups are accommodating. Without students having funn they can't afford to put on the events.

Remember as the student you are the customer and if you are not connecting with your assigned instructor go find the chief instructor and ask to be reassigned. I will bet you that if you are not having fun neither is the instructor that is assigned to you.

Not everyone gets along not everyone learns the same way. Just a part of life.

On a side note, I do remember one of my best instructors ever. A guy by the name of Ed Tisdale (sp?). Best instructor I ever had. Every time I got out of the car I wanted more!!! He was also one of the best at communicating what he was thinking and how and why he was doing things when he was driving. I came away from that event knowing I had learned alot. It was an eye-opening experience where it all came together.

Ohh and he was an all around great guy as well. I really enjoyed talking with him about things other than racing. There is a funny story about that but I will save that for another time.

I used to track a 1990 Civic. My seat had been upgraded to a nice race seat and I had a 5-point harness to keep me safe, properly tied to bar in the back. I was ready for anything the track could dish out.

My instructor gets in, plops down in the stock seat, which wobbled a little bit, and shut the door. The motorized seatbelt then began it's pathetic, 3.5 minute journey...

GGRRRRRRRWWWWWWRRRMMMMMNNNNmmmwwn...mmmngnn....mmmmgnnng...pffft.

Sounded like a wounded goose swallowing gravel and never made it to a satisfying CLICK at the end. He looked at me like: "thanks for thinking of my safety even once, jerk"

Despite that, he was a great teacher and I learned a lot. At my next track day, the car had 2 good seats and 2 sets of current harnesses.

docwyte wrote: Personally I don't see my responsibility as an instructor as getting you faster. That's not my job or my main thrust. Here's how I see my job #1 Keep you and your car safe #2 Make sure you have fun #3 Teach you the track and the line That's it. I'm not a race coach and I'm not going to pore over data with you looking for tenths of seconds. Yes, I can give you info about the track and where to turn, brake, etc. That's a whole lot different from what a race coach is going to do...

This wholly depends on who you instruct for.

I teach BMWCCA club race school and well as ITS once in a while and regular HPDE less and less.

At club race school the goal is to get the guys comfortable in traffic and teach etiquette, start protocol and "close is safe" racing.

At ITS it's to teach future instructors how to be ahead of students, the CCA philosophy and so forth...

But at HPDE schools... once a student is into the intermediate group I have a responsibility not just to glad hand him around and make sure he is safe but to offer ways to improve both his awareness and pace. It's actually the part I find most rewarding. I've had the opportunity to help coach a few guys who went on to the pros, to NASA and CCA championships... many "Other Sports Beckon" types who shouldn't even drive TO the track.... but the vast majority are happy people with some chops, forever destined to remain also-rans wallowing in the sea of mediocrity with occasional bursts of brilliance. Much like myself . I like to do whatever they can handle and I've made a lot of friends that way over the years.

Don't get me wrong, if I see where someone needs to improve, I tell them. If they're comfortable with the car but are driving parking lot speeds, I help them with that.

My point is I'm NOT a race coach and you shouldn't be expecting that level of instruction at an HPDE.