Manual wagon, and then I'm interested. I take iadr's point though- didn't know that was such a big issue. Also didn't know the manual percent was that low. The auto's are getting much much better, but there still is nothing like downshifting to second to make that 90 degree turn home everyday.
BMW manages to sell quite a few manual trans 1 and 3 series last time I checked...
Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote:clutchsmoke wrote: Auto only?? Come on Kia...Exactly. For the first time we got a car with an auto for my wife, and that was only because it did not come with a stick. For me I will not get something with an auto as my DD as long as I can and it pains me that there are lots of cool cars out now that do not come with a "do it yourself" option.
This. It's the one killer. I can't get behind a turbo engine mated to a slushbox. I just can't.
iadr wrote: Again, as a dealer, I have to say, it has nothing to do with take rate, and everything to do with customers coming in with warranty period with a ruined clutch. If they make a scene demanding it under warranty- and 99% of the time they do, it can cost a dealership $10,000 in withheld customer service bonuses.
Am I making a wild jump here or is another way of interpreting the statement above that the "must score 10" dealership service rating card is killing the manual transmission due to the fear of the missed $10,000 customer service bonus?
David S. Wallens wrote:bravenrace wrote:And we have discussed that. Right now Kia doesn't have a box in their lineup that mates with this new engine. I have a related question, though: If the turbo Optima came with a manual transmission, how many of you would actually buy one today? (Like, actually spend money for one--not just discuss it online.) Personally, I wish it came with a stick, but in reality it's out of my price range.David S. Wallens wrote: They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.They need to look harder. Enthusiasts don't want an auto trans. I'm in the market for a car like this right now, but I won't even look at this one because of this.
I would. I'm going to be in the market very soon for a commuter car. I'm looking for a 4 door, right sized, manual trans, great MPG car. I like the Hyundai Elantra and Accent hatch since they have 6 speed manuals. I also like the Mazda 3 proportions and price but I need to wait for the next model w/ a hopefully nicer looking front end.
I'd go and sacrifice a virgin if they would build such a car with RWD.
A coworker of mine owns an Optima SX Turbo. The interior and paint work are seriously nice. He drives rather sedately and works a different shift from mine, so I don't know how quick it is, but he says it's plenty fast.
If it came with a stick, I may very well purchase one. I need to think about replacing the MINI eventually.
bravenrace wrote:David S. Wallens wrote:I see your point. I can only speak for myself, and I can't say I'd buy it. But I'd consider it, which is more than I'll do with the current auto version.bravenrace wrote:And we have discussed that. Right now Kia doesn't have a box in their lineup that mates with this new engine. I have a related question, though: If the turbo Optima came with a manual transmission, how many of you would actually buy one today? (Like, actually spend money for one--not just discuss it online.) Personally, I wish it came with a stick, but in reality it's out of my price range.David S. Wallens wrote: They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.They need to look harder. Enthusiasts don't want an auto trans. I'm in the market for a car like this right now, but I won't even look at this one because of this.
And that's the argument I hear from the car companies. The internets are full of people clamoring for more stick shifts but, when push comes to shove, they're not making purchases. At some point we need to vote with our dollars and not with our keyboards.
I haven't driven an SX yet, but one of my friends has one. He also has an STi. He's considered selling the STi because this car checks all the right boxes for him.
David S. Wallens wrote:bravenrace wrote:And that's the argument I hear from the car companies. The internets are full of people clamoring for more stick shifts but, when push comes to shove, they're not making purchases. At some point we need to vote with our dollars and not with our keyboards.David S. Wallens wrote:I see your point. I can only speak for myself, and I can't say I'd buy it. But I'd consider it, which is more than I'll do with the current auto version.bravenrace wrote:And we have discussed that. Right now Kia doesn't have a box in their lineup that mates with this new engine. I have a related question, though: If the turbo Optima came with a manual transmission, how many of you would actually buy one today? (Like, actually spend money for one--not just discuss it online.) Personally, I wish it came with a stick, but in reality it's out of my price range.David S. Wallens wrote: They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.They need to look harder. Enthusiasts don't want an auto trans. I'm in the market for a car like this right now, but I won't even look at this one because of this.
The problem with this scenario is it's a short-term outlook from the car companies. I agree that they will sell very few manuals and they might even incur higher costs in fixing clutches under warranty. However, in the long run, it's all us car-nuts on the internet who make the recommendations to friends, family, and co-workers on what cars they should buy. I think we're all more likely to give favorable reviews to car companies that make good fun cars, and a big part of that is offering the manual transmission...
Overall I don't think it's a huge cost to the car manufacturer and it gets them a big boost with the people who care, and who have the biggest voice in recommending cars to consumers (enthusiasts).
Also, I think it has a very big impact on branding. Look at the modern Toyota vs Honda and Mazda. Toyota is the boring grandma-mobile supplier while Honda and Mazda are the fun, cool car companies. I think part of this is the fact that you can get a manual in most Honda and Mazda sedans and subcompacts, but it's hard to do or impossible with Toyota, and it's been like this for a while. Now you see Toyota really struggling to change that image.
David S. Wallens wrote: One of our Facebookers just asked why this review is on GRM.com. Know what? I think it's an important car. For one, it shows how far Kia has come in just a few short years. Remember Kia's lineup from 2005? Me neither. Today they're making some kick-butt cars, and they're backing that up with three factory racing efforts: Optimas in World Challenge, Forte Koups in Continental Cup and Rios in B Spec. Personally, I'm eager to see where this company will be in another few years. I had an interesting talk with some Kia officials at this weekend's World Challenge race, too. They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.
I like the new Kia market, they are trying to be what Honda was. The problem is they are going so fast they will pass what Honda was and go straight to what Honda will be.
Which is a brand that has lost it's identity, has no real products but a bunch of commodities and will charge you luxury car prices.
Oh wait they already have the Hyundai brand for that.
Just an opinion here but I am the only person that thinks the new Hyundai/Kia cars feel cheap? They look good but when I touch them they feel cheap.
David S. Wallens wrote: And that's the argument I hear from the car companies. The internets are full of people clamoring for more stick shifts but, when push comes to shove, they're not making purchases. At some point we need to vote with our dollars and not with our keyboards.
There's the rub.
Hitachi- I appreciate your thoughts about enthusiests recommending cars to friends who ask. But even IF you suggested a car from, say BMW, who do have a good cross section of manuals available, how many of the suggestions to get Manual X from Brand Y fall back to, "well, I'd rather have an automatic"?
There's no short term about it, car companies are out to sell cars people want to buy NEW, not used. So unless more people go out and buy brand new cars with manuals, nothing is going to change anytime soon.
As for the cost- Some quickie numbers- I think we sell something like 250-300k Fusions. And lets be generous and apply 10% to that, not correcting to 10% of 4 cyl buyers, which will be a much smaller number so call it 30k manuals sold, annually. That, realistically, isn't all that much for a plant. I think trans plants are close to engine plants, and can put out 500k a year, so being generous, from one plant, we need 10% production of manual transmissions.
You get a unique case casting, a unique bell housing casting, a unique gear set (non-planetary), clutch, flywheel, etc. Sure, in massive production, its a lot fewer parts than an automatic, but spreading that over 30k instead of 270k changes the investment cost. I won't even bring in the cost of development (since it gets abused all the time anyway).
Correcting the actual number to actual manuals for Fusions, it's probably closer to 10k. It's a WHOLE lot easier to pay for casting, machining, and assembly line tools to make something for 250k of parts vs. 10k. It's not trivial at all.
If you can actually talk your friends into buying new manuals, awesome.
If not, well....
I think it is sad that this whole thing has gotten to this point. It seems to me a bit like the chicken and the egg. Manufactures are not putting out upscale cars with sticks so if Joe wants all the toys he has to get an auto so he buys and auto. More and more Joes do this and the car companies can look at the numbers and say "we are not selling manual trans cars", they cut back some more and the cycle continues.
Talk of going out and buying new cars with sticks is all well and good but if I can not get the mix of options I want with a manual it really does not make any difference if I want a stick or not, its just not available.
As I said before in all likelihood I will never buy a new car so this is all theoretical on my part and I really have no right to complain, but I am going to anyway. 
In reply to Rusted_Busted_Spit:
Make sure that your friends go out and get Focus Titaniums with manuals and then when the 1.6l turbo Fusion comes out next year, get it with a manual- totally loaded.
If people don't do that, this experiment will end quickly.
In reply to alfadriver:
That I can do.
I'll get one of each....
David S. Wallens wrote:bravenrace wrote:And we have discussed that. Right now Kia doesn't have a box in their lineup that mates with this new engine. I have a related question, though: If the turbo Optima came with a manual transmission, how many of you would actually buy one today? (Like, actually spend money for one--not just discuss it online.) Personally, I wish it came with a stick, but in reality it's out of my price range.David S. Wallens wrote: They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.They need to look harder. Enthusiasts don't want an auto trans. I'm in the market for a car like this right now, but I won't even look at this one because of this.
A manual would be awesome in that car...that being said I wouldn't buy it for MYSELF either way. But my girl refuses to drive a manual anyways and the Optima is one of the cars we are looking at getting for her.
David S. Wallens wrote:bravenrace wrote:And that's the argument I hear from the car companies. The internets are full of people clamoring for more stick shifts but, when push comes to shove, they're not making purchases. At some point we need to vote with our dollars and not with our keyboards.David S. Wallens wrote:I see your point. I can only speak for myself, and I can't say I'd buy it. But I'd consider it, which is more than I'll do with the current auto version.bravenrace wrote:And we have discussed that. Right now Kia doesn't have a box in their lineup that mates with this new engine. I have a related question, though: If the turbo Optima came with a manual transmission, how many of you would actually buy one today? (Like, actually spend money for one--not just discuss it online.) Personally, I wish it came with a stick, but in reality it's out of my price range.David S. Wallens wrote: They're definitely looking at the enthusiast market.They need to look harder. Enthusiasts don't want an auto trans. I'm in the market for a car like this right now, but I won't even look at this one because of this.
What answer were you looking for? Would you expect any one of us here to say we would buy a car without looking at it and driving it first? I am absolutely in the market for a car in this segment. I haven't even looked at this car because it doesn't have a manual option. I can't say I'd buy it because it would also have to be the right car in every other way before I would. In reality, I CAN say I won't buy the car you reviewed because I won't look at it, and I won't look at it because there is no manual option available. The real point I'm making is that if Kia is serious about catering to the enthusiast crowd, they're not going to do it with a turbo-autotragic car. I'm my opinion, they aren't serious until they offer a manual trans, and a good one at that.
I too, am always in the market for a brand new car. But, for me to shell out the cash, it has to meet ALL of my requirements.
That's why I don't care too much if a 4 door fwd sedan has a manual. If I'm really that concerned about having a manual people hauler, hello BMW wagon!
In reply to alfadriver:
I'm not talking about an enthusiast recommending a manual transmission. I'm talking about them recommending a brand.
Ex: The owner of this magazine raves about BMWs. Would this happen if they didn't sell manuals? No way. Is everyone who hears that he likes BMWs going to buy a manual? No, but they have hear positive things about the BRAND coming from a car enthusiast.
I'm not saying the enthusiasts will convince folks to buy more manual cars, but I think they give more favorable reviews to car companies that offer them, and that has an impact on what people buy, even if they buy the automatic version.
Just a side thought about manual vs. automatic. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has NEVER owned an automatic daily driver. Current WRX 5MT, previously Maxima 5MT, Accord coupe 5MT, Acura Integra 5MT, and so on. We do have a 4Runner, obviously automatic, but that's my wife's DD. Before get got that (for the space/towing) she always had MT cars as well: Mazda3, Jetta, Corolla....
Anyhow. the main problem with M/T is the problem around here (in DC area): Traffic. The bulk of this country's population lives in metropolitan areas....and traffic is consistently getting worse in these areas. I love my M/T, but I can honestly say that while sitting in gridlock I'm wishing to hell I had an automatic, while meanwhile my left leg is about to fall off. I have alot of friends in this area who say they would "rather have a manual but don't want it because of the traffic." That's the rub.
The bulk of the population that makes the money to buy the "loaded" cars (with whatever transmission) work in metropolitan areas, and hence drive in metropolitan traffic, and hence tend to want an automatic even if they enjoy M/T driving better. And really, the bulk of the population in general lives in metro areas as well.
THAT is why the manual transmission is not as popular is it otherwise would be. It isn't because people dont' like M/T. It's traffic.
irish44j wrote: Anyhow. the main problem with M/T is the problem around here (in DC area): Traffic. The bulk of this country's population lives in metropolitan areas....and traffic is consistently getting worse in these areas. I love my M/T, but I can honestly say that while sitting in gridlock I'm wishing to hell I had an automatic, while meanwhile my left leg is about to fall off. I have alot of friends in this area who say they would "rather have a manual but don't want it because of the traffic." That's the rub.
And it is not just in this country. When I bought my Transit Connect I immediately signed up on the UK Transit Connect forum. When I posted info about my TC most of the comments I received were about the automatic transmission.
Many of the UK Transit Connect owners would love to have an automatic transmission but they are not available in the UK.
In reply to JohnyHachi6:
Mazda, apparently, has a sporty image. Miata, MS cars, manuals offered in the V6 6. How many times do you see people suggest Mazda products here? All day long- favorite car is the Miata on this board.
yet sales suck. And if they don't do something soon, it's going to be a big problem.
BMW isn't about enthusisest recommending them, it's a preception of what it means to be an owner.
I know we like to think we have some kind of influence on car sales. But the leading car companies in the world are GM and Toyota. Yea, both companies have seen hits in recent years. Yet they still sell WAY more cars than BWM or Mazda do. Image is overrated.
There's one of the problems; the GRM board members don't think the same way as the people who buy new cars. For example, my commute is 40 miles each way. So I decided a reasonable choice to make the trip in would be... to buy a 13 year old BMW with over 100,000 miles on it and pay cash. And this probably seems perfectly reasonable to most people on the board. The average shopper in Toyota's new car department would wonder if I am out of my berkleying mind. Except they wouldn't get the Berkley reference.
I was pondering this morning what it would take to get me shopping for a new car, and concluded that selling that novel I've been working on for $250,000 after taxes would be about right. That would be enough to pay off the house I'm in now, sell it, pay cash for a house very close to work (at least in today's seriously depressed housing market) and have plenty left over for other things. Again, I think most of the people in new car showrooms do not require a briefcase of money to motivate them to go shopping. But I have a disdain for car payments that borders on pathological, which would rule out buying anything but the very cheapest new cars. And the presence of much better cars used rules out buying those. Which means that it's quite understandable that car companies would give up on trying to get people like me to buy their cars.
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