GRM Review: Kia Optima SX

My wife loves her 2011 Sonata 2.0T Limited. The only nagging problem we've had is a string of transmission issues, starting with fluid leaks that could not be fixed by the dealer, who eventually replaced the transmission with a rebuilt one. That was followed by a downshift solenoid failure which at first was attributed to faulty hardware. Six months later we have the same problem, but the solution is a "software upgrade". I'm not sure they've figured it out yet. Meanwhile, you can't help but wonder where the car will leave you next. Not a great attribute for a new car, with less than 26k gentle miles on the odometer.

Interesting thread - I have to say I agree with everything alfadriver posted. My short experience at an OEM and my longer experience in the industry in general has made it very clear that the people clamoring on the Internet for a given product don't actually back up those statements with cash. Car manufacturers know that and they are for-profit businesses. The math is pretty simple. It's not sad or unfortunate, it's reality. Fact is, my Mom will buy new cars more frequently than I will, so her needs are more important than mine.

Couple of recent examples:

BMW released the last M5 in auto only. The boards literally lit up with indignant posts from enthusiasts, so BMW created a six-speed manual version for the US market only. And. Nobody. Bought. It. Here an automaker went out of their way to make a bespoke model for a specific market and got crickets when the things went on sale. Lesson learned.

I'm sure you could search this forum and find pages and pages of discussion about the lack of a RWD, naturally-aspirated sports car. Light weight, returning to the roots of the idea of a sport car, etc. Then Toyota and Subaru build it and the nitpicking and hand wringing begins. All of a sudden the flyweight RWD car of our dreams is compared to a Mustang. It needs 300 hp and the light weight isn't much of a consideration. And while we're all bitching and nitpicking about a car we won't eventually buy, Toyota sells 300k Corollas to people with money that don't want to think about cars. So who's smarter?

Another good example is the Pontiac G8. RWD, V8, decent fit-and-finish. The poor man's M5! And...nothing. Cancelled due to lack of interest while appliances fly off the dealership lots.

When it comes to actually buying cars, us enthusiasts can be like a whining, high-maintenance girlfriend. Full of demands and not appreciative of the effort put forth. If we did have any pull, Mazda would sell more cars than Toyota. Ain't happening. Sorry for the overly negative post, but to me it's simple math: if a group of people say one thing and do another, they will be ignored. And if a bunch of people that have no intention of buying a new car complain about the new car they're never going to buy, they SHOULD be ignored.

See also: six-speed Subaru Legacy GT wagon.

The awesome comments were backed up with lousy sales.

In reply to David S. Wallens:

MazdaSpeed Miata....

alfadriver wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: MazdaSpeed Miata....

That one is a bit different... never meant to be a high numbers car in the first place, and then the factory burned down. There were supposed to be many more 2005s than were actually made.

In reference to Speedblind's post:

I am active on two Focus forums. People there have been bitching about the lack of a manual transmission, high performance Focus for years. Well, now the Focus ST is coming.

Of the hundred or so people I know personally (meet and talk to regularly, not just from posts on the forum), there are 3 that I am sure will buy an ST when it arrives. The rest talk a good game but when it comes time to put the money down they disappear.

I already have a Focus that with the modifications I have made will nearly match the preformance of the ST so I won't be one of the buyers.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: MazdaSpeed Miata....

That one is a bit different... never meant to be a high numbers car in the first place, and then the factory burned down. There were supposed to be many more 2005s than were actually made.

Not really- even with the limited "limited" production, they didn't sell that well. That's pointed out repeatedly on the Miata.net board.

Hal wrote: In reference to Speedblind's post: I am active on two Focus forums. People there have been bitching about the lack of a manual transmission, high performance Focus for years. Well, now the Focus ST is coming. Of the hundred or so people I know personally (meet and talk to regularly, not just from posts on the forum), there are 3 that I am sure will buy an ST when it arrives. The rest talk a good game but when it comes time to put the money down they disappear. I already have a Focus that with the modifications I have made will nearly match the preformance of the ST so I won't be one of the buyers.

That's kind of the reason I'm holding out until the Fiesta ST comes- even though my drive would be happy with a B-Spec shod basic Fiesta. I'd like to get the ST with all of the goodies in it.

I don't want to get too far into off the topic of how fine of a car the Kia is, but suffice it to say, we need to do a better job as an enthusiest community to either buy NEW cars with manuals, or get people who ask us to get manuals.

Else they will go away, for the most part.

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: MazdaSpeed Miata....

That one is a bit different... never meant to be a high numbers car in the first place, and then the factory burned down. There were supposed to be many more 2005s than were actually made.

Not really- even with the limited "limited" production, they didn't sell that well. That's pointed out repeatedly on the Miata.net board.

They sure kept their book value up for a few years, though.

I'm guessing they didn't sell well because they just didn't drive that well. Good starting point. Not a great car.

When I was at Kinetic, i was asking the Team Manager how they acquired the Optimas. I already knew that if an automotive manufacturer that is funding a factory team will just give them junk cars off the assembly line. This was the same case. He showed me a "seam weld" that the Quality Control Manager at the factory didn't like and automatically junked it. I can tell you, there was nothing wrong with the weld. Kia's attention to detail is absolutely amazing. If something, that i can't see with my naked eye is deemed "defective" in the eye of a factory employee, you know their stuff rolling off the line is good 100% stuff!

Big thumbs up to Kia!

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: When I was at Kinetic, i was asking the Team Manager how they acquired the Optimas. I already knew that if an automotive manufacturer that is funding a factory team will just give them junk cars off the assembly line. This was the same case. He showed me a "seam weld" that the Quality Control Manager at the factory didn't like and automatically junked it. I can tell you, there was nothing wrong with the weld. Kia's attention to detail is absolutely amazing. If something, that i can't see with my naked eye is deemed "defective" in the eye of a factory employee, you know their stuff rolling off the line is good 100% stuff! Big thumbs up to Kia!

hYUNDAI/Kia employed an interesting concept in their factories worldwide. ANY employee can suggest production changes/thought/ideas on how to cut costs, improve production etc. If their plan gets implemented they get a cut of the profits gained by it.

Needless to say the average Hy/Kia factory worker is a little more interested in what they make than the typical UAW worker.

I'd say you could cut costs by not double posting.

WHERE'S MY CUT?!??!?!?!

I don't know how that happened!

Bobzilla wrote:

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: When I was at Kinetic, i was asking the Team Manager how they acquired the Optimas. I already knew that if an automotive manufacturer that is funding a factory team will just give them junk cars off the assembly line. This was the same case. He showed me a "seam weld" that the Quality Control Manager at the factory didn't like and automatically junked it. I can tell you, there was nothing wrong with the weld. Kia's attention to detail is absolutely amazing. If something, that i can't see with my naked eye is deemed "defective" in the eye of a factory employee, you know their stuff rolling off the line is good 100% stuff! Big thumbs up to Kia!

hYUNDAI/Kia employed an interesting concept in their factories worldwide. ANY employee can suggest production changes/thought/ideas on how to cut costs, improve production etc. If their plan gets implemented they get a cut of the profits gained by it. Needless to say the average Hy/Kia factory worker is a little more interested in what they make than the typical UAW worker.

That's not all that unique. My company has been doing that for years, and we copied Honda, who has been doing it since the early 80's.

In reply to bravenrace:

i am just saying, the attention to detail is unreal now. it was a weld that I could see no problem with, but it was a big enough deal to make it non-sellable

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: MazdaSpeed Miata....

That one is a bit different... never meant to be a high numbers car in the first place, and then the factory burned down. There were supposed to be many more 2005s than were actually made.

Not really- even with the limited "limited" production, they didn't sell that well. That's pointed out repeatedly on the Miata.net board.

When we were looking at new Mazda3s and 6s for my wife in late 2004, the dealer practically begged me to buy the new MS Miata that was clogging up his showroom floor. If I had bought the sedan, I probably could have added the Miata as a side order for well under $15k.

Duke wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: MazdaSpeed Miata....

That one is a bit different... never meant to be a high numbers car in the first place, and then the factory burned down. There were supposed to be many more 2005s than were actually made.

Not really- even with the limited "limited" production, they didn't sell that well. That's pointed out repeatedly on the Miata.net board.

When we were looking at new Mazda3s and 6s for my wife in late 2004, the dealer practically begged me to buy the new MS Miata that was clogging up his showroom floor. If I had bought the sedan, I probably could have added the Miata as a side order for well under $15k.

Holy hell... around here they were still selling for $26k. In 2006-2007. Used.

Maybe "well under" $15k is an exaggeration, and I doubt I could have gotten that low without a twofer including the other car, but he was pressing me hard to buy it. He said at first everybody came to look at it, but very few drove it, and nobody would make an offer on it.

Duke wrote: Maybe "well under" $15k is an exaggeration, and I doubt I could have gotten that low without a twofer including the other car, but he was pressing me hard to buy it. He said at first everybody came to look at it, but very few drove it, and nobody would make an offer on it.

They didn't make an offer on it because they drove like something was wrong with them. Had a bizarre "double lag" thing going on. I test drove three different ones after i thought there was something wrong with the first one, but they all did it.

Part of the reason why i wasn't looking for an MSM when i went convertible shopping this past summer.

And we see how well that worked out.

Her is the fix for this. If someone on here hits the big lotto take that money and buy a crap load of manual trans new cars, and then distibute them to folks on here.

Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: Her is the fix for this. If someone on here hits the big lotto take that money and buy a crap load of manual trans new cars, and then distibute them to folks on here.

Don't laugh: if I ever hit it big that way, I'm buying 5 CTS-V wagons with manual transmissions, just to reward Cadillac for having the nads to make the thing.

Duke wrote:

Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: Her is the fix for this. If someone on here hits the big lotto take that money and buy a crap load of manual trans new cars, and then distibute them to folks on here.

Don't laugh: if I ever hit it big that way, I'm buying 5 CTS-V wagons with manual transmissions, just to reward Cadillac for having the nads to make the thing.

Caddy also had a big, big paddock display at last weekend's St. Pete Grand Prix.

I made the dealer find my Manual Elantra, I told them I would only buy a manual, they found one within 24 hours.

If the Kia was offered in manual I would definitely drive it with a view to buying and I will go and see the 1.6 Turbo Fusion in manual when they arrive, thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, if you look at what makes financial sense, no one should make manuals any more. Much less a sporty manual wagon- so I golf clap for:
-Cadillac
-BMW (hens teeth, yes, but you can buy them)
-?? Does the WRX hatchback count?