Mr_Asa post about monotony made me wonder that question...
So has anyone powered a car with an outboard motor?
Mr_Asa post about monotony made me wonder that question...
So has anyone powered a car with an outboard motor?
Do you mean with the motor actually outboard, or using a engine from an outboard? Because the former amuses me.
For the "just for the lulz" sort of outboard swap:
Or the slightly more practical case of an Evinrude two stroke V8 in a Volvo:
I knew a guy years ago that had a EM Spitfire (Wayne Synder?). Was formula atlantic powered (and blew up alot) and then was converted to some 2 stroke marine engine / power head.
I think it blew up too.
Kendall_Jones said:I knew a guy years ago that had a EM Spitfire (Wayne Synder?). Was formula atlantic powered (and blew up alot) and then was converted to some 2 stroke marine engine / power head.
I think it blew up too.
At some point, that guy has to realize that the common element in those failures is...him ;)
If I recall correctly some of the USAC Midgets used to run outboard engines.
I always wanted to do it, but there is a pretty high level of fabrication involved. Often times many of the functions (water cooling, exhaust passages, etc are cast into the block/heads. In some cases you can just make some kind of adapter and build a header or a water neck. Other times they are all cast into the belhousing for easy packaging to get them to the lower unit.
You also will need a complete custom induction system if you're planning on laying it down like they did with that Volvo/Evinrude above.
Still, a worthwhile and wickedly fun endeavor, I just don't have the disposable time and money for a toy project right now. You can get a pretty awesome amount of power out of a relatively compact and lightweight power plant.
My dream (as a younger lad) was to put something like a 40hp head (leaving it upright) and couple it through a centrifugal clutch to a small live-axle like maybe a golf cart axle to put under a go kart. The particular 40hp head I had (1962 West Bend Golden Shark which was vaguely related to the Chrysler outboards at the time) was pretty proprietary like I mentioned above. All of the water and exhaust passages were part of this "head gasket" like separation between the block and the shaft housing. It looked more like a separator plate for the transmission valve body with about 6 oddly-shaped holes in it. I ended up scrapping the idea for that project and then I turned 16 and drove real cars so I lost interest. In hindsight, I likely could have sectioned the shaft housing somewhere between the lower unit and bellhousing and maybe found some round or square passages that could have been easily adapted.
I don't know what the prices are like for used outboards, but in the new market the $/hp ratio is not good. I can buy a 430 hp crate LS3 for under $10k with a warranty even if I put it in a golf cart. A 400 hp Mercury outboard is $35k - and it's considered a lightweight at only 683 lbs according to boats.com. What do outboards bring to the party other than lolz?
This is my dream for the LMP360. I want to find a 6 or 8 Cyl powerhead for cheap. That way it can be a 2 stroke again. Most of them spin up to 8-10K rpm, they sound stupid cool, and are compact and really light. Like ~200lbs and capable of 250-300 HP NA light.
The issue is they are so damn expensive. I need to find one that fell off a loading dock and cracked the drive unit.
I've looked at combining snowmobile or Jetski triples, Jetskis tend to be the cheapest but they don't rev as high and apparently weigh more then the snowmobile equivalent.
This is future Dan's problem.
Briggs Cunningham tried to do LeMans 24 with a Mercury but it failed to meet requirements. I think that year their back up was a Ferrari which broke too, but at least it made the race.
There used to be a class for midgets running outboards.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:There used to be a class for midgets running outboards.
That is quite the sentence to unpack there Wally.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The older 2 stroke ones are lighter. And that weight is the whole thing including transom bracket. A guy I worked with that was developing the 2-stroke V6 motors that were to continue before Mercury went 4stroke said the actual engine weights where 200-250 lbs with ECU.
The LS series of engines make a reasonable case to make the use of any other engine on earth seem rediculous. The combination of Power/weight/value is hard to argue against. Their disadvantages are mostly packaging due to their size (relative to physically smaller lower power engines) and then simple preference and opinion.
But that's no fun. If every car had a LS engine in it life would be pretty boring.
I remember Hot Rod, or some similar magazine showing someone that took a Zephyr 4-cyl outboard, used a heater core for a radiator, and made a go-kart for their kid.
In reply to nocones :
The reason I used an LS3 is because it's a number I know without having to look it up. And yes, it's a crazy value. But with that new Mercury coming in at 450% of the price of the LS3, it's not even in the same ballpark. $35k is MSRP on a 2021 Camaro with an LT1! You buy an engine and you get a whole car for free. I'm sure there are other crate engines we can use as a comparison. Looking at Ford V8s, looks like they're price-competitive with the LS. So again we have a massive disparity in cost when new. Do outboards depreciate enormously, more so than cars?
Two-stroke, I get. They're going to be lighter. A K-series Honda is around 275 lbs if the internet is to be believed - how much power were those V6 Mercuries making? I'm not trying to be a downer here, I'm seriously trying to figure out what benefits an outboard motor has if there's no boat involved.
If every car had an LS engine life would definitely be fun :) Every F1 car had the same engine back in the Cosworth DFV era and we seemed to think it was okay. I am all about functional engine swaps, I'm less clear on engine swaps just because they're weird. I leave that to Red Green.
It was quite common in the 40s-60s for two stroke outboards to be installed in Midgets and TQ midgets.
Two strokes are lighter and more powerful than a similar displacement 4 stroke, so they make a lot of sense for a racing application.
The AMW motor in my F500 makes 83hp and weighs 86lbs, the expansion chamber is 2-3lbs so call it 90lbs. The Rotax motor weighs about the same and makes 95-100hp dependent on exhaust.
As for outboard motors; the power ratings are a bit low for those motors because they don't feature things like expansion chambers which will add 25-30%. Larger carbs in combination with the chambers will add another 10-15% to the otherwise stock motor and that's before you even port the motor.
I'm a huge fan of two strokes, I find them to be way more friendly than 4 strokes and you seldom get the catastrophic failures one gets with high revving 4 strokes. Two strokes failures are usually down to improper jetting (lean is mean).
Now as for their gas mileage and pollution........mmmmm yeah that's not so good.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Keith Aaen Perfomance makes a 1000cc V4 two stroke that puts out 275hp. Racing two strokes were around the 325-350hp per liter but the powerbands weren't exactly user friendly. Streetable two stokes were in the 225-250hp range 25-30 years ago. I'd expect the V6 two stroke outboard to be around 250hp per liter range.
Your point is well taken about doing an oddball conversion when there are so many choices like the aforementioned an LS or K-series. There are so many things like a transmission adapter, do you use premix or go with the oil pump (if it has one), exhaust routing etc.
I may be a huge fan of 2 strokes but I also know the outboard conversion isn't very practical.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to nocones :
The reason I used an LS3 is because it's a number I know without having to look it up. And yes, it's a crazy value. But with that new Mercury coming in at 450% of the price of the LS3, it's not even in the same ballpark. $35k is MSRP on a 2021 Camaro with an LT1! You buy an engine and you get a whole car for free.
And to carry this comparison to the extreme, we must consider the new V-12 Mercury 600HP outboard. Rumored street pricing in excess of $70,000 each!
Never understood the boat tax on motors and stuff. Is it because if you can afford a boat you can afford to pay the it is floating on water tax? Is there really that much more technology? Development costs?
I used to race with a guy that ran a small bore sports racer called a Sceptre. One of the original Sceptres used a Mercury two stroke outboard engine.
See https://bringatrailer.com/2009/07/17/micro-special-1961-h-bomb-mercury-race-car/
Until the advent of the Mazda rotary, it was the loudest car on the track.
Lots of other two stroke cars but offhand I can't think of another outboard example.
In reply to wspohn :
I love H-mods. Sadly not a lot of them vintage racing anymore.
I mean Honda outboards are essentially J-series V6s so if you go buy an Odyssey, Ridgeline, Accord V6, Pilot, or Passport you've got one, just with a single stage induction system. I also think only the BF225 has VTEC
Keith Tanner said:Two-stroke, I get. They're going to be lighter. A K-series Honda is around 275 lbs if the internet is to be believed - how much power were those V6 Mercuries making? I'm not trying to be a downer here, I'm seriously trying to figure out what benefits an outboard motor has if there's no boat involved.
I bet a two stroke V6 would sound neat.
That's the only justification I have. That, and I was handling an engine block and was mind blown that something that tiny would make 200hp.
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