Has Kumho dethroned the NT01?

Someone was recently talking up their experience with Kumho's V730 and went as far as saying they wear better and are faster than the NT01. NT01 has always been my choice for HPDE dry tire use due to its grip, longevity (cost), consistency (not worried about heat cycles all the way to the cords) and heat tolerance.

Checked the price and was shocked the v730 was 30% cheaper on average (albeit with a much reduced number of sizes).

From users of both tires, has NT01 been dethroned as the dry HPDE king where consistency grip and longevity are of utmost importance over peak lap times or wet performance?

So, funny story. A looooooooooooong time ago, we had lunch from some people from Nitto. I think we ate at Chili's. 

They asked about track tires: What did we want, what sizes to offer? I remember them taking a lot of notes–like, with pen and paper. 

A little while later, the NT01 came out. Did our talk help? I think I got a smile in return.

Loved my time on that tire but, also, that was a long time ago. Just sharing our Track Tire Guide since it showcases today's offerings. 

I'd be curious to know as well.  The NT01 are my go to tires for track use...

This is relevant to my interests.

We tried the V720 a while back, and I wasn't all that impressed.  Fast for a couple laps, then fell off quickly in HPDE sessions.  Interested to hear if the V730 is an improvement.

The NT01 hasn't been the top pick up here for years...

In reply to Javelin :

For anyone competing, that's definitely true.  It's still a popular tire with many HPDE folks because it's a very good value if you're not looking to post the fastest laps.

If you are looking for longevity and consistency, the rs4 may be the Droid you are looking for.

wvumtnbkr said:

If you are looking for longevity and consistency, the rs4 may be the Droid you are looking for.

The RS4 is a decent bit slower than the NT01. NT01 has just as good longevity (or dang close). 

Javelin said:

The NT01 hasn't been the top pick up here for years...

Compared to what? Most everyone that ranks tires higher than NT01 have caveats for having a higher peak grip (but then lower overall grip through the life of the tire), or better dual duty (wet performance), but nothing through the years has proven to be a better durable while sticky for DRY HPDE use (thus peak grip not as important). 

This is specific to us weirdo's who trailer cars (or have tire trailers) to HPDE (only, no race use) 5, 6, or 7 weekends a year. Thus we have street tire backups for rain, (or if you are like me dont want to drive in the wet at all).

David S. Wallens said:

So, funny story. A looooooooooooong time ago, we had lunch from some people from Nitto. I think we ate at Chili's. 

They asked about track tires: What did we want, what sizes to offer? I remember them taking a lot of notes–like, with pen and paper. 

A little while later, the NT01 came out. Did our talk help? I think I got a smile in return.

Loved my time on that tire but, also, that was a long time ago. Just sharing our Track Tire Guide since it showcases today's offerings. 

David,

That is one of the reasons I posted here. Your team gave the V730 an A+ for wear (better than an A for NT01), a better warmup (A vs B) than NT01, and the same heat tolerance, and pace grades on par with NT01. 

This tells me it should be just as fast or faster, last LONGER, all while being 30% cheaper. 

NT01's last FOREVER. Like 8 - 12 WEEKENDS forever. Like, 64 - 85 SESSIONS (heat cycles) forever. 

If I can set similar average laptimes on HPDE weekends, for that number of sessions, for 30% less cost, I am changing my wheel sizes and stocking up on V730s along with most everyone I run weekends with. 

In reply to Olemiss540 :

I paged Andy. :) 

Paging Andy! The lunatic out there changing the tire game.

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Really no offense meant, but if you're finding NT01s lasting 64+ 20 minute-ish HPDE sessions, you should just switch to RS4s. Those will last longer and likely teach you more. The fast Miata guys cord NT01s in 16-20 sessions around here, without any funny super-low pressures or tire shaving. NT01s last muh longer than the new "super 200s" and Hoosiers, but not THAT long. I've met a bunch of people locally talking up the NT01 for lasting 40+ sessions, and I truly think they are in the situation of only having experience with one tire, hearing others talk about much worse life with their other-brand tires, and not realizing the difference is more the massive pace difference (and hence what the tire is being asked to do) than some magic in the NT01. Specifically I'm talking guys well off SM pace with much more capable cars.

Feel free to tell me that's not you... But then I'd really like to hear how you're getting that much life out of your tires.

I have codriven a 2019 civic sport in H Street autocross on V730s. I was impressed. When the budget permits, I'm going to try a set on my civic for my dry day autocross and track day tires.  

spedracer said:

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Really no offense meant, but if you're finding NT01s lasting 64+ 20 minute-ish HPDE sessions, you should just switch to RS4s. Those will last longer and likely teach you more. The fast Miata guys cord NT01s in 16-20 sessions around here, without any funny super-low pressures or tire shaving. NT01s last muh longer than the new "super 200s" and Hoosiers, but not THAT long. I've met a bunch of people locally talking up the NT01 for lasting 40+ sessions, and I truly think they are in the situation of only having experience with one tire, hearing others talk about much worse life with their other-brand tires, and not realizing the difference is more the massive pace difference (and hence what the tire is being asked to do) than some magic in the NT01. Specifically I'm talking guys well off SM pace with much more capable cars.

Feel free to tell me that's not you... But then I'd really like to hear how you're getting that much life out of your tires.

There is absolutely NO doubt that "fast" miata guys (assuming you are talking about race car drivers here and not HPDE kings) will go through tires much faster than I go through tires regardless of type and brand. But I don't understand what you mean as an RS4 is NOT faster than an NT01 according to any publication I am familiar with. 

I like to think the group of us "HPDE kings" all in the advanced run group running NT01's on a wide variety of car types with similar results (NC Miata, e46 m3, C7 Grand Sport, e36 m3, LS swap e36 m3, LS swap TI, and GT4) with between 6 and 14 years of HPDE experience, speaks to the NT01's capability and endurance, but maybe it speaks more towards our group's collective pace. So stepping down tire will result in us being better drivers and thus be able to cord our NT01's faster? 

Or are you saying the V730 lasts just as long as NT01's, but had to phrase it in a way that was personally degrading since I asked such a stupid question?

In reply to Olemiss540 :

I'm not trying to degrade or argue with you at all. I am suggesting that if NT01's are lasting as long as you claim, you're wasting money on your tires, and would be better served by stepping "down" to something like the RS4's until you're pushing them to/past their limits and it's truly the tire holding you back. IMO you'll learn more quickly on the slower tire, and you'll save money to boot.

I don't have specific experience on V730's. I replied only because I've spoken with a ton of people at HPDE's that are debating spending more and more money on tires to chase lap times (and essentially advocating others to do the same), when they'd be better served by concentrating on improving via the vaunted Driver Mod. The conversation typically takes the form of "my NT01's last <shocking amount> of sessions, I've been thinking of switching to [A052|Hoosier|etc]". Without fail, they are well off SM pace (which uses Toyo RR's locally, not much quicker than NT01's), and would really be better served by improving their driving - they're just wasting money otherwise. Whether I actually say anything depends on how well I know the person. Only trying to help, why waste money?

I think what he's saying is that NT01s only last that long if you're under-driving them, and if you're going to do that then there are many tires that will have similar lifetimes.

Don't get me wrong, NT01s are an excellent track day tire.  They're relatively inexpensive, they don't need to be shaved to avoid chunking on a race track, they're pretty consistent when driven hard for a 20 minute session, and they don't "heat cycle out" to the same degree that many other tires do.  If you are more concerned with self-improvement than with competing with other people then the NT01s are great.  Perhaps the V730s meet those same characteristics -- I haven't used them so I don't know.

My experience is that when I was doing 1:43s at Laguna I got 9 days out a set of a NT01s, but now that I'm doing 1:39s with the same car I only get 4.

Great point. I will get some RS4s on order and learn how to drive faster.

For anyone else reading this thread that may be a better driver than me, can we answer whether v730s last as long at a consistently grippy speed as NT01s? For 16 heat cycles I mean.

spedracer said:

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Only trying to help, why waste money?

Well crap. Went and shopped RS4s and it looks like they are actually 15% more expensive than NT01's and are "Sold Out for the Season".

Olemiss540 said:

spedracer said:

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Only trying to help, why waste money?

Well crap. Went and shopped RS4s and it looks like they are actually 15% more expensive than NT01's and are "Sold Out for the Season".

 

They will probably last more than 15% longer though.  (No personal experience with RS4s, just going off what I've been told).

But yeah, one of the big problems with that tire is that Hankook ships them over here in large but infrequent batches, and once they're gone it can be a long wait to get more.

Olemiss540 said:

spedracer said:

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Only trying to help, why waste money?

Well crap. Went and shopped RS4s and it looks like they are actually 15% more expensive than NT01's and are "Sold Out for the Season".

 

Not sure where you're shopping for them at, but in the last few years Hankook sells them directly from their Hankook Motorsports website. But they are also sold through their endurance racing website... which conveniently enough you don't need to have any special credentials/etc to actually purchase from... they are SILLY cheap here (at least for the sizes I'm interested in, I don't look at much else):

https://endurancetire.com/products/rs4-tires?variant=42637673562369

If you were only checking Tirerack... as much as I love them they are NOT the place to buy Hankooks from. 

Edit: For what It's worth I've gotten 7 days on track from my 245/40R17 Falken RT660s so far on my 19 GTI, with two more days at VIR this coming weekend. I may be able to get another 1-2 after that... BUT I just purchased a set of 245/40R17 Kumho V730s for next year... Especially because I have a private event for a friend's wedding at VIR which will be 8hrs of open track time the day prior to a 2-day HPDE weekend and I'll be needing fresh tires because of that. I'll be updating my thread in the project journal/etc subforum as time goes on.

Back when I HPDEd on the reg my go to was the nt01.  Super consistent and had great life expectancy.

I know there is potentially superior tires out there now but if I ever get back to lapping...nt01 is the first one Id shop for.

Finally getting to this...sorry about the delay.  Been kinda busy...you know...testing stuff.  :)

First off, remember that our tests are only one data point.  In fact, since we have a variety of test vehicles, which one we choose for any given test will have an impact.  For example, if a tire is particularly good at longitudinal grip...especially combined loading...that will only show up in an excess-power car.  So on our Miata, it hardly registers....at least on the accel side (it does for braking).  But with the CRX or 720, it shows up big-time.

Suffice it to say, YMMV...literally.

So, a word about the NT01 (and it's sibling, the Toyo RA-1).  These tires are really old tech.  They were kings in their day, but have been surpassed in various ways.  If that's the level of grip & longevity you want, the V730 is a good modern alternative.  You should also look at the revised Maxxis RC1 with the R2 compound.  That was really good in our recent 100tw test.

If you want to go faster, there are plenty of alternatives...at the expense of durability.  My personal favorite is the Goodyear Supercar 3R.  Much faster than even the vaunted Super 200's, but way more consistent during sessions and are good to the cords.  I'm just finishing off a set this weekend.  The rears have no visible tread, but still stick.

There's also something else I've recently tested that is not yet in print.  Another Super 200.  Super consistent...and durable...and quick.  It's actually an update on an existing tire.  VERY impressive.  Stay tuned...

In reply to Andy Hollis :

"Stay tuned..." 

This is one of the topics I watch the most, can't wait.

While we've got you here Andy, can we get the Nankang NS2R or Federal 595 RS Pro in a comparo? For some folks that just want to get on track and have fun with a decently competent tire, sometimes low cost lowers the barier to entry and expands the track day rego budget a bit if the performance and feel aren't too dismal.