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Berck
Berck Reader
8/10/23 1:30 p.m.

Car loans are relatively safe--when the buyer defaults, you just go collect the car.  They might be upside down on it, but it's not a total loss.  Up until very recently, it was pretty easy to get 0-1% financing on an auto loan, and with those numbers it's makes better financial sense to finance even if you can afford to pay cash.  I'm paying 1.9% on an auto loan right now--with savings accounts that pay 4%, why would I pay it off?

I suspect higher interest rates are going to change things quite a bit--most buyers shop based on monthly payments, and they're going to be able to get a lot less car with higher interest rates, even with 7 year loans becoming more popular...

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
8/10/23 1:48 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

 People are often irrational and stupid and make bad financial decisions all the time.  

Mmmm yeah this is how I ended up with two race cars..................granted the two race cars, tow vehicle and trailer only add up to 25K.

If you have good credit and a decent income you can buy a really nice vehicle. Since people spend several hours a week in a car or truck I'm sure the thought process is "why not get a really nice one?" 

I may not subscribe to that mindset but I suspect most Americans do.

There's a guy who routinely pits next to me with a 911GT3 and he once made mention of an engine failure being 60K and the fact that it would be a big financial hit for him if it happened. I got the feeling it would take him a year or more to pay for that. Again I find this crazy but he's seems happy with the car and willing to risk the potential hit.

 

 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
8/10/23 2:26 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

 

Seems like this thread has gotten a bit derailed into ranting about how people are stupid and pay too much for vehicles.

Going back to the original question of why the average new pickup price has risen faster than the average new car price, one needs to look at the vehicles being sold.  30 years ago a pickup was a much more bare-bones vehicle compared to a car, they didn't have the nice seats, the fancy stereo, the insulation and other NVH-reducing features, etc.  Pickups were primarily work vehicles, not something that people used for commuting to an office job, and so compared to a car you were spending a greater percentage of your money on running gear -- drivetrain, chassis, brakes, etc and less on interior niceties and luxury features.

Fast forward to today and pickups are much more commonly used as replacements for cars.  My 2021 F-250 is a thousand times more comfortable to drive than my '07 or '02 Chevies were, and even those were far more luxurious than a '93 3/4 ton vehicle.  So today's pickups still have the expensive pickup drivetrain and chassis, but now they ALSO have the same luxuries as a car.  So it makes sense that the overall price has increased more than it has for the car.

This is exactly it. In the '80's, a truck was a truck. It was a very compromised vehicle that was good at hauling stuff, but pretty bad at everything else. The price range for an '80's F150 was in the same range, if not a bit lower, than a Taurus. One didn't often cross shop the two. The '94 Dodge Ram started to broaden the appeal of trucks, and the '98 with the rear doors made it a less compromised vehicle compared to cars. I bought my first house in '03, and started contemplating getting a beater truck. I saw the '04 Nissan Titan crew cab, and it completely changed the game for me. It was a truck, but it was modern, drove nice, could seat 6, and had lots of storage space in the cab. Plus my wife wanted to drive it for her daily, so I could have my cake and eat it too. Truck for truck stuff, but I could still daily my fun cars. The size of the truck, large quad cab with a short bed, was perfect. I gladly traded a few inches of bed for the bigger cab. The bed being 5" short of 6' has affected it's ability to transport what I  needed it to exactly zero times in the 19 years that I have owned it. As a die hard car guy who didn't really consider trucks, my first ever new car purchase was a truck. Sure it spent some days hauling air, but it had also spent a lot of time hauling things and pulling trailers. Lots of people own sports cars, you don't expect them to explore the limits of their vehicles daily on their way to work. The performance is there when they need it, just like a truck's capability is there when you need it.  

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/10/23 3:13 p.m.

You know what I find to be a completely useless vehicle?  A Miata. No cargo space, no weight capacity, no more than 2 people, minimal HP, and if you try to fit a suitcase in the trunk, it better be a small one. I've owned 7 of them, but I'd be lying if I said they served good utility purposes. Most of the time, they sat in the garage, or cost me money in consumables to get them to the track.  

My truck?... Fantastically useful EVERY SINGLE DAY. I can haul people, or things, or trailers, or tools, or goats, or anything I want to. My family fits. My grandkids can ride in it safely. My tools are on board, and it earns me money.  It's comfortable. Gets 22 mpg fuel economy. Can tow 13,600 lbs. It's a nice place to spend 1000 miles per week. And it retains its resale value, so when I go to sell it I can get a large percentage of my money back.  By far the most useful vehicle I've ever owned.
 

Too bad more people don't appreciate trucks. 

yupididit
yupididit UltimaDork
8/10/23 3:16 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

On the other hand, you might not want to invest in the banks loaning out the money to all these people. History has a way of repeating itself.

Fool me once...

 I have to think that the vast majority of new cars that are sold are financed, would love to see some actual statistics around it.

A vast majority of Americans do not have $40k+ in cash sitting in their savings account so most def majority of new cars are financed. Cant argue with that assumption lol

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/10/23 3:17 p.m.

Anybody who wants to drive something like a Europa really needs psychiatric help.

winkwink

parker
parker HalfDork
8/10/23 3:19 p.m.
SV reX said:

You know what I find to be a completely useless vehicle?  A Miata. No cargo space, no weight capacity, no more than 2 people, minimal HP, and if you try to fit a suitcase in the trunk, it better be a small one. I've owned 7 or them, but I'd be lying if I said they served good utility purposes. Most of the time, they sat in the garage, or cost me money in consumables to get them to the track.

My truck?... Fantastically useful EVERY SINGLE DAY. I can haul people, or things, or trailers, or tools, or goats, or anything I want to. My family fits. My grandkids can ride in it safely. My tools are on board, and it earns me money.  It's comfortable. Gets 22 mpg fuel economy. Can tow 13,600 lbs. It's a nice place to spend 1000 miles per week. And it retains its resale value, so when I go to sell it I can get a large percentage of my money back. 
 

Too bad more people don't appreciate trucks. 

Depends on use.  Yes, if you're hauling or towing more than a couple of times per year a truck might make sense.  Somehow I managed to be a homeowner for 30 years without owning a truck and pretty much everyone in Europe does the same.  For how most trucks are used a Miata is perfect.  One person driving from the apartment to the cubicle and back.  Good gas mileage and fun to drive when traffic allows.  

Too bad more people don't appreciate light, nimble two seaters.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/10/23 3:27 p.m.

In reply to parker :

If everyone drove a light 2 seater car, the price would double and we'd bitch about that too. 
 

I like them. I've owned more than 30. But if I had to have only 1 vehicle, it would absolutely definitely be a truck. 
 

And I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
8/10/23 3:29 p.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

You're close, but not quite right. The C/K line started the ball rolling with a truck that doesnt' drive like a truck. 88MY (late 87) GM brought out the C/K series trucks which were soooooo much better than the previous trucks. It turned, braked and rode well along with having comfortable cabin, amenities (AC, Cassette/EQ stereo, power windows/locks etc) and decent fuel economy. Dodge hopped on the band wagon with the 94 and then ford in 97. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
8/10/23 3:31 p.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

This is exactly it. In the '80's, a truck was a truck. It was a very compromised vehicle that was good at hauling stuff, but pretty bad at everything else. The price range for an '80's F150 was in the same range, if not a bit lower, than a Taurus. One didn't often cross shop the two. The '94 Dodge Ram started to broaden the appeal of trucks, and the '98 with the rear doors made it a less compromised vehicle compared to cars.

This guy gets it.  In the 80's trucks had roll-up windows and thin vinyl floor mats.  If the interior got dirty, you sprayed it out with a hose.    He's spot on about the re-styled '94 Ram also.  It's the truck that made people realize that you could in fact replace your sedan with a truck.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15140975/1994-dodge-ram-1500-archived-instrumented-test/

Berck
Berck Reader
8/10/23 3:57 p.m.

Disagree hard on the utility of a Miata. I got by for more than a decade with a Miata as my sole vehicle.  They are incredibly practical and are the only car most people need--moving 1 or 2 people and some groceries around.  If you had 7 and were mostly driving a truck around, you were doing it wrong.

"If everyone drove a light 2 seater car, the price would double and we'd bitch about that too."

Yeah, no that isn't how this works.  Economies of scale would make them all cheaper. 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
8/10/23 4:01 p.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

You're close, but not quite right. The C/K line started the ball rolling with a truck that doesnt' drive like a truck. 88MY (late 87) GM brought out the C/K series trucks which were soooooo much better than the previous trucks. It turned, braked and rode well along with having comfortable cabin, amenities (AC, Cassette/EQ stereo, power windows/locks etc) and decent fuel economy. Dodge hopped on the band wagon with the 94 and then ford in 97. 
 

The late 80's GM trucks were great trucks, and definitely raised the bar as far as trucks were concerned. But I think the Ram was the first to really the first to push trucks to becoming desirable outside of normal truck buyers. When Ford did their redesign, they were apprehensive with changing the formula. I believe they produced and sold both the new and the old truck (as the F150 Classic) in the same year during the switch. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
8/10/23 4:02 p.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

GM has almost always carried the old model for the dually/1-ton and suburbans. Even did the classic thing in 07. Ford ditching the i-beam helped them. 

ojannen
ojannen HalfDork
8/10/23 4:03 p.m.

What is the alternative to a $45K supercrew full sized truck for someone with kids and a race car habit?  I tow to enough events that enterprise truck rentals don't really make sense.  The kids come to events too so I can't get a standard cab.  $20K truck, $20K daily and double car insurance is tough if I want rear side curtain airbags in both vehicles.  Is there a secret here I am missing?

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
8/10/23 4:03 p.m.
Berck said:

Disagree hard on the utility of a Miata. I got by for more than a decade with a Miata as my sole vehicle.  They are incredibly practical and are the only car most people need--moving 1 or 2 people and some groceries around.  If you had 7 and were mostly driving a truck around, you were doing it wrong.

"If everyone drove a light 2 seater car, the price would double and we'd bitch about that too."

Yeah, no that isn't how this works.  Economies of scale would make them all cheaper. 

Except big boys like me that don't really fit in a Miata. But please continue to tell me what I need so I can ignore it. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
8/10/23 4:12 p.m.
bobzilla said:
Berck said:

Disagree hard on the utility of a Miata. I got by for more than a decade with a Miata as my sole vehicle.  They are incredibly practical and are the only car most people need--moving 1 or 2 people and some groceries around.  If you had 7 and were mostly driving a truck around, you were doing it wrong.

"If everyone drove a light 2 seater car, the price would double and we'd bitch about that too."

Yeah, no that isn't how this works.  Economies of scale would make them all cheaper. 

Except big boys like me that don't really fit in a Miata. But please continue to tell me what I need so I can ignore it. 

What I really need is a truck to tow my Miata to the track.

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
8/10/23 4:23 p.m.

In reply to ojannen :

As someone mentioned above, the big SUV's have greater depreciation than their pickup brothers. My wife wanted an Expedition when her Telluride was totaled.  New ones were very expensive. We found that low mileage, certified used ones were a substantial savings over new. Plus with the 100,000 mile certified warranty, you could end up with a longer warranty Vs. new. The only catch is to check the car fax to see where the truck came from. Lots of previous rentals shuffled in from rust belt states. We paid a bit more for a local, privately owned example. If you are okay with 2WD, they can be had for significantly less. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
8/10/23 4:31 p.m.

Why is it that old Suburbans are always cheaper than trucks of the same vintage? With the seats folded down you can actually haul more crap in the Suburban than you can a shortbed pickup and still use it as a tow pig. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
8/10/23 4:37 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Why is it that old Suburbans are always cheaper than trucks of the same vintage? With the seats folded down you can actually haul more crap in the Suburban than you can a shortbed pickup and still use it as a tow pig. 

must be a location thing. Here, they are within a grand or two but the suburban/yukonXL will have 50%+ more miles. 

2010 200k miles

2010 135k miles

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) UltimaDork
8/10/23 4:43 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

I just doubled my money on a Miata. Bet I can't do that with my truck after six years of ownership.wink

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
8/10/23 4:46 p.m.

In reply to ojannen :

I've become fond of SUVs and Vans.

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) UltimaDork
8/10/23 4:47 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to parker :

But if I had to have only 1 vehicle, it would absolutely definitely be a truck. 
 

If I had to go to one vehicle I'd find the nicest Chevy Astro I could, but there isn't much equivalent to one of those anymore.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/10/23 4:48 p.m.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

In reply to SV reX :

I just doubled my money on a Miata. Bet I can't do that with my truck after six years of ownership.wink

I just doubled my money on a truck. Go figgar...

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/10/23 4:49 p.m.

...and lost money on the last 3 Miatas I sold. wink

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
8/10/23 5:08 p.m.

I have said to my wife numerous times I should be driving a truck as the daily but I really don't like driving them as a daily. Granted I don't think I've driven a truck newer than 2010. I have ridden in a couple of 2022s and they are really nice but they are still bigger than I like........the Outback is my "big" car.

I think you guys have pretty much answered why they've gone up in price, why people like them and are willing to pay what they cost. 

 

 

 

 

 

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