Help me understand BAT

As someone mentioned I think of this in the same vein as Icon's Derelicts. The Icon derelicts are all modern and re-engineered under the skin, though. If anyone isnt familiar, the owner has done a bunch of podcasts and youtube shows, I think most of the people here would have a hard time not liking him after listening to him. He does some pretty cool stuff, and hes big on stuff actually being usable and durable. Using outdoor furniture textiles instead of automotive textiles because the color availability is exponentially larger and durability is way higher, is the type of obvious but awesome idea, that Id never think of, and it based in making a better car thats usable not a show piece.

This F250 is more of a survivor, if you read everything they went through the whole truck and refreshed everything, but they didnt even swap to discs. To me it looks like they did a "restoration" that passes as a real survivor, which is pretty popular right now, and not exactly cheap. Cant say Id pay that much, but Im not surprised someone would.

I think patina jumps quickly from "authentic" to phonier than a three dollar bill the moment you drop several large $k on a professional restoration to everything else and clear coat the finish so you can try to convince all your rich friends that yes, you do in fact have rougher edges than them, even though these BaT photos will be the last time it touches dirt. 

Mr. Peabody said:

People with more money than brains get caught up in an e-dick swinging contest until one of them loses. The funny part is the guy who thinks he won is the guy who actually loses.

That's crazy because there are members on this very forum that bid on BAT, for cars that cost even more than that one. Hell, some of them even win. Just because you don't find value in the item doesn't mean it isn't worth it to anyone else. Why can't they have a lot of money and brains? Also, what's the point of having a bunch of money if you can't spend it on the things that YOU WANT. 

I don't understand why y'all have to make personal attacks on other people because they're living their life making decisions they want to make, decisions that doesn't cause you any harm. This E36 M3 is getting annoying. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

I kind of agree with you. I'm not a fan of doing a whole vehicle in faux patine. I recently looked at a 56 chevy wagon for the wife, a friend has rescued it from a field. It had the perfect patina.

There are a few places where small repairs would need to be made. If I wanted to keep the finish overall it wouldn't make sense to do a nice finish on a small repair spot, and it would look worse if I had a small spot in primer. So if I want to preserve the overall finish I'd have to try and recreate the patina in small spots. If I didn't want it to continue to rot away I'd need to protect it, so the plan was a matte clear. So if you already have the finish I'm cool with preserving it (which is what the descriptions says they did) but if your creating it from nothing I'm not a fan, but to each their own.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

You make some "interesting" assumptions.

I've seen your work in the past. You can do much better.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

I just don't get it. Did someone really buy this truck for market value or is something else going on with the crazy numbers some of their auctions bring?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-ford-f-250-14/

If it was bought as an investment the purchaser must assume the price will go up substantially. Difficult to see that happening. And if not why would someone pay that for a daily driver? Considering all the vehicles out there you could pick from in that price range, I don't understand choosing one that has old paint and a lot of non stock parts including a 4WD swap.

Wow...  Normally I'd say, "well... you couldn't duplicate it for the sale price..." but that is not the case with this truck.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to duplicate it for half the sale price.  It's a neat truck, but that price is hard to understand.

I don't know... BaT is definitely a strange place at times.  One of my bicycling buddies has a FD RX7 he's looking to sell.  It's not quite original, but it's basically stock.  He doesn't really drive it much anymore and is looking to reduce his "stuff level" a bit.  I told him to list it on BaT after getting the OE wheels back and reinstalling them in lieu of the aftermarket wheels it currently has.  All it takes is two bidders with deep pockets and a lack of restraint. 

I dunno, some things sell on BaT for large amounts of money but those are usually the low mileage, survivor cars.  Other times cars sell for market rate or less, like my friends 35k mile arena red 993 C4S.  It sold for $80k I think?  Which is what it would've sold for minimally on a private sale, he was hoping to get six figures for it.  He got hurt by timing, it was sold around Xmas...

BaT is great for a seller, if (when?) I decide to sell my VW Corrado VR6 I plan on selling it on BaT...

I just saw this and wow...

In reply to A 401 CJ :

I read a study recently that only 21% of millionaires received an inheritance at all. 16% was above 100k and 3% was above 1 million.

Im not saying everyone made their money, but its definitley more than a few.

Some of you are saying this could be recreated for less...yes, but how long would that take and can you even find someone to do it?

I just pulled an engine, got 3 local recommendations for rebuilding...all were negative on the phone like they don't want to do it and are backed up 6 months to boot. Ended up buying a long block out of TX.

BAT is a place that sells Integra Type-Rs and E30 M3s for obscene amounts of money.

Opti said:

In reply to A 401 CJ :

I read a study recently that only 21% of millionaires received an inheritance at all. 16% was above 100k and 3% was above 1 million.

Im not saying everyone made their money, but its definitley more than a few.

This doesn't account for people who start in a wealthy family with all the advantages and privileges that go with it. Earning a million dollars when you have a family wealthy enough to feed, clothe, house, and pay your tuition all the way up and through grad school is a lot easier than graduating high school and starting with zero dollars and no family support.

You can technically have no pennies to your name but when you become a neurosurgeon for free making a million dollars after that is pretty trivial.

MrFancypants said:

Opti said:

In reply to A 401 CJ :

I read a study recently that only 21% of millionaires received an inheritance at all. 16% was above 100k and 3% was above 1 million.

Im not saying everyone made their money, but its definitley more than a few.

This doesn't account for people who start in a wealthy family with all the advantages and privileges that go with it. Earning a million dollars when you have a family wealthy enough to feed, clothe, house, and pay your tuition all the way up and through grad school is a lot easier than graduating high school and starting with zero dollars and no family support.

You can technically have no pennies to your name but when you become a neurosurgeon for free making a million dollars after that is pretty trivial.

It also doesn't account for those that exploit their workers, or exploit various markets (housing being a big one) in order to become rich.  

:)

Yea let's take this party out to the patio.

:)

yupididit said:

Mr. Peabody said:

People with more money than brains get caught up in an e-dick swinging contest until one of them loses. The funny part is the guy who thinks he won is the guy who actually loses.

I don't understand why y'all have to make personal attacks on other people because they're living their life making decisions they want to make, decisions that doesn't cause you any harm. This E36 M3 is getting annoying. 

If you live in a world that allows somebody to spend this money on what is essentially a toy while others live paycheck to paycheck, you're gonna have to deal with petty jealousy at a minimum. I know more than a few people who work long hours toiling away at the expense of their body and free time only to eke out a meager existence. I know very few rich people who didn't get the majority of their money from wise/lucky investing. Buying this truck doesn't seem like a wise investment, but it's also not my money.

I suspect the buyer owns a lot of other old trucks and is trying to manipulate their value, which is another reason for jealousy.

There was an e30m3 that hit 6 figures on BAT and didn't actually sell. They didn't make a lot of noise about that last bit, but now you can't touch one for under 30k anymore.

I like BAT because I get to see all the obscure cars out there, and how much some people are willing to pay for it.

If they're willing to pay for it, so be it. If I had disposable income, I would certainly spend a lot of it trying to get a mint condition Pulsar GTI-R (with the optional umbrella hole) stateside. 

Yes, YOU could replicate this truck for less, but could you pay a shop to do it for less?

Really think about that. Assume a $120/hr shop rate and the cost of an in demand solid starter truck, keep in mind that patina like that WITHOUT major rust repairs needed commands a premium.  That looks to be a body off with frame restoration type build.  We have done this exact thing at our shop several times and I would bet our final build prices were more than this.

My only beef with that truck, apart from it being not at all aligned with my automotive interests is the "resealed motor" but I know a lot of my clients to who that is a positive. 

The folks playing at this level of the game have been through all this before. They have already had the experience of paying orders of magnitude more than the resale value of a car in restoration or modification. They know how much it can cost and how long it can take.  They look at that ad and have a good idea how much a reputable shop would charge them to duplicate it.  These are also mainly, busy business professionals who do not have the luxury of being able to spend evenings and weekends in the garage doing it themselves. 

I love ya GRM'ers but there is a whole other world of auto enthusiasts to whom sticking recycled appliance sheet metal together with flux core welders isn't an option.  These men and women also keep the lights on in my shop.

Resealed FE is a real thing.  If an FE stops leaking it may be out of oil.  I had a 65 truck with a 352 I bought for $50.  I guess I should've restored it and kept it.......

In reply to Trent :

They did do some rust repair, but no other body work so far as I can see. And these trucks are so basic that I don't really know where much more money and time was spent. New engine seals and gaskets, vintage air kit, new brake drums and shoes, front axle and suspension, and a recovered seat. The owner said hundreds of hours which I believe but 300 hours times $100/hr is still only $30,000. $10,000 absolute top end for a nice rust free donor truck (I paid 500 for a nicer one) and maybe $10,000 for all the other money spent. That's a good wage for working on a hobby, plus $80,000 in profit.  From my perspective I am not jealous in the slightest. In fact I should be pretty happy to see this auction because the value in mine just rose a notch or two. I just cannot see the value. Its not rare, it is not restored, it has no celebrity owner significance, and it is not original. Oh well, mine not to reason why. 

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

I agree with this 100%. If it were some crazy build like the linked Ikon stuff I'd totally get it. For that truck though? I just don't know....

For those wondering where the money comes from, Credit Suisse estimates there are currently more than 56 million millionaires in the world. 

Now most of those are fairly common people that have a decent 401k after a couple of decades of working, or they bought a cheap house in an expensive place and then sold when prices skyrocketed, or owned a decently successful small business. These people probably aren't going to have $130k liquid to drop on an old truck on a whim. The buyer of this truck probably has many times the price of this truck in spending money. Very likely to be worth 10s of millions of dollars on the low end. You might think, "There can't be more than a couple of thousand people on the planet with like $30 million right?", but you'd be wrong.

As of 2018, there were over 265,000 people worth at least $30 million (About 1/3 of those people inherited at least some of their wealth), and that number is sure to be higher now with the way the markets have gone in the last couple of years. That's an awful lot of people to potentially overpay for your old truck. Heck, I wonder how many of those people would even recognize much difference in the truck that sold and something more thoroughly crafted like the ICON stuff. Lots of people don't really know better, or simply want the look.

For those who don't know, PRD design does a lot of great work. https://www.prddesign.com/  I've seen their shop since it's not that far away.  He put a lot of shots of the work in this car in his instagram. So after seeing it was that truck, $130K is not out of the realm. The labor hours in that truck would put it near that total. Some may say it was a bargain. 

There is a world for builds like Icon, PRD, Singer, Etc. I don't live in it but I'm glad that these extremely talented craftsman are getting properly compensated for their incredible work.

And note, All Millionaires are not going to live in this world either. I bet there are a lot of millionaires in your day to day life that you don't realize. This is more of a build for the 10s or 100s of millions.  

Some interesting assumptions about the person who bought it.

Here's all I want to know- what company are they associated with?  Because there is some fishy math in the corporation if they thought this was a good deal.  Nothing special was done to this, other than keep it  looking like it was neglected for years (most patina I see is neglect, not use)- seals were replaced, engine was rebuilt, etc.  It's a partial rolling restoration using probably brand new parts.

That could have been done by someone here for 1/10 of the sale price.  There is zero special skills that are in that vehicle.  None, nada, nothing, zero- that was just parts replacement.

If it were more a restomod where a modern 7.3 Godzilla was installed with a modern 4x4 rest of powertrain, with updated braking systems, better cooling (with nice and hidden A/C), hidden upgraded chassis for better towing/off road, etc- THAT is where serious money is well spent.

It's great that something like that is so appealing to people- not me, but people are allowed to be interested in other things.  

But to somehow think it's jealousy to ridicule the person for overpaying- not so much.   It was either a 100% emotional decision to buy that (and not because it's a super rare vehicle) or it was a pretty poor economic decision.  Either way, I would seriously question how that person ran their business to make that much money.

In reply to MrFancypants :

Yes life isnt fair for anyone, but becoming a successful neurosurgeon is definitely hard work even if its all paid for. Otherwise everyone would do it, nobody has any problem lending people money for school, people get loans for hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to school to get a useless degree. Something like 80% of med school graduates have school debt with the average being about 250K.

I must point out that I am surprised by someone who would pay that kind of money for that particular truck. But I fully respect the guy who made the money. Hat is off to him.