Help me value a fastback for a Miata

In reply to SVreX:

Paul, that's an Autokonexion part. Their site says it's $1750 and shipping is $450 -$950.

SVreX wrote: All right. Who's Google Fu is good enough to tell me who makes that top, and what the price is?

Looks like 2 primary companies already in the market. The one in the photo appears to be from Autokonexion, while Warhorse Performance also offers one.

The Autokonexion one is $1750 with Windows.

DeadSkunk wrote: In reply to SVreX: Paul, that's an Autokonexion part. Their site says it's $1750 and shipping is $450 -$950.

I agree that the article identifies it as an Autokonexion, but I haven't seen one on their site with an operable trunk. That one has an operable trunk.

I also can't find shipping rates on their site (but maybe you're better at this than me).

STM317 wrote:

SVreX wrote: All right. Who's Google Fu is good enough to tell me who makes that top, and what the price is?

Looks like 2 primary companies already in the market. The one in the photo appears to be from Autokonexion, while Warhorse Performance also offers one. The Autokonexion one is $1750 with Windows.

I'd already seen both of those. The Warhorse site has no contact information at all, nor pricing. They may show pictures, but they aren't selling any.

The Autokonexion site doesn't show an operable trunk, and states that they currently have 2 months processing time due to mold update and repairs. I'm not sure if that means they are selling any...

The Autokonexion top has a separate trunk lid. You can see the body seam in the pictures on their site. It normally isn't hinged, but it is removable to use the trunk space, held in place by two pins and hood pin arrangement. I have seen an installation where the purchaser added hinges on his own though.

https://garagewoolery.com/the-cars/the-pitcrew-roadster/#jp-carousel-758
This is an Autokonexion top on the Garage Woolery NA Miata. You can see the spate trunk lid.

In reply to DeadSkunk:

Maybe I'm being dense, but I see neither seams nor hood pins (and their pictures are pretty crappy):

A few thoughts: Can you approach it like a 65-66 Mustang Fastback to get a functional trunk? Could you make it modular with a left and right side and a center section, which could get it to shipping dimensions? I agree the back window should be flat or one curve or use a factory available window.

In reply to SVreX:

I did a bit of digging about the Warhorse one, which I like quite a bit. They have a small Facebook page. He made one comment about the fiberglass fastback within a question about the steel work he's doing to the Miata: "People thought my fiberglass fastback with barely any profit margin was "too much"." I would take that to mean if you want one, he'd probably make one, but it won't be cheap and it's probably why there's no pricing listed on the website. I get the impression that fastback is a few years old.

In reply to Ian F:

Yeah. I like it too.

Part of what remains to be seen is what my costs will be. I have access to a high production fiberglass shop (which may mean the cost per unit drops after the mold is made).

These are the 2 ways to make a functional trunk:

The first one has less glass area, and a more operable trunk (hinges could be added).

The second one has larger glass, but the seam line of the trunk is above the lower edge of the glass (which would make hinges very hard). Better looking, less trunk access.

Opinions?

From my experience with things like this. Many thousands will like your idea and encourage you to make it but only a select couple few will actually purchase from you and of those a couple of them will say your product sucks because it was not self installing and did not turn their $500 Miata into a 458.

If I were you I would have a talk with Keith as I really think he of all people would have his fingers on the pulse of the Miata world and be able to give you a realistic outlook on your product.

In reply to dean1484:

That's a very good word (and Keith would certainly be on my radar before proceeding).

If the numbers don't work, it won't matter. I won't need to talk with anyone.

SVreX wrote: In reply to DeadSkunk: Maybe I'm being dense, but I see neither seams nor hood pins (and their pictures are pretty crappy):

The seams are at the bottom corners of the window, just as you noted in the Garage Woolery photo. The trunk lid may have latched in the stock latch, but rather than hinges there were pins on the lid and tubes in the roof. The trunk lid was completely removable to access the trunk. I'll see if I can find a picture.
The other thing Garage Woolery did with their car was to get custom made glass instead of using the Autokonexion supplied flat Lexan windows. That was costly. Any potential design you do would sell better (IMHO) if it could utilize window glass from some existing vehicle. The Woolery Autokonexion top is the best looking one I've seen. Flat glass/Lexan and rivets don't look finished, especially if I'm dropping $2-3K for a top.

If I pursue this, I am hoping my business approach will make a bit of a financial difference.

It seems most people who have tried things like this are small shops with limited time between paying projects for development and marketing. They buy materials at retail, lay up the fiberglass manually (labor intensive, quality control issues), take a risk, and have to then try to sell the finished parts and are met with unhappy customers because they can't meet quality concerns, shipping deadlines, costs, lead times, etc.

My idea is to pay my friend outright for the molds. I will own the molds. Then, I will place orders with him, and he will complete them in his high production fiberglass shop during down times between larger runs of his regular products. I will order them at a scale large enough to make it worth his time, but not so small that he is loosing his shirt. I will be the only customer he has to deal with- he won't have to worry about selling, stocking, keeping people on the internet happy, etc. He will be paid every time I place an order, and not have to inventory anything. Sales and marketing will be my job.

The only thing I will have to do is add a markup. I will own the inventory, and handle the sales.

I will be developing a presence in automotive, he will gain some diversification without having to invest the time in a new industry. I will use his shop's excess capacity without having to invest in building my own shop. And hopefully we can therefore deliver products at a price that consumers will appreciate.

Hopefully a win/win/win.

I lean towards the Warhorse version with the operable trunk. I'd be willing to give up some appearances for functionality.

Personally, I'd contact Warhorse and see if they would be willing to sell the molds they may already have. If they are doing the fiberglass work themselves, they may not have the ability to do production work profitably in a way the shop who know of (hopefully) can. No point in reinventing the wheel if you don't have to.

In reply to Ian F:

Good idea. Too bad no contact info on the Warhorse site.

I think a top for a street Miata (with factory side windows) would be challenging to fab. But they do look cool.

I once had a similar plan to produce and sell a custom fiberglass hood. Molds were going to cost 5 figures, and the shop I was dealing with wanted a few hundred/piece to lay them up. Maybe your friend can get you better pricing, but be prepared for the numbers to be pretty high.

Back in the height of the Samurai rock crawler craze (I had 3 myself) Glenn Wakefield had big plans for a Fiberglass tub.

Had to be BIG money to get going and most Samurai builders like myself had visions but no extra cash.

Maybe Miata owners are different?

STM317 wrote: I once had a similar plan to produce and sell a custom fiberglass hood. Molds were going to cost 5 figures, and the shop I was dealing with wanted a few hundred/piece to lay them up. Maybe your friend can get you better pricing, but be prepared for the numbers to be pretty high.

I will be able to negotiate with him.

I contacted Autokonexion. They are not accepting orders.

So, it looks like there are zero current companies.

In reply to SVreX:

Might that suggest there's little demand?

My .02 cents on this: 1) there must be a reason that other companies that have taken the time to develop this have decided to discontinue sales. 2) I think it might be more cost effective and beneficial to ship this as a kit than as a completed product due to the fact that your target market is racers and ricers and you are competing with the $800 dollar hardtop and leave well enough alone. Plus, as a kit the end user can decide whether they want lexan or glass, trunk or no trunk. 3) Your design kind of looks like the new MX-5 stock model which means that anyone who gets one runs the risk of looking like a poseur in the fact that they will be driving an older car that is imitating the newer style.

Overall I think you should persue your idea but be ready to sell your kit at a deep discount to "dealers" in high population areas that specialize in Miatas and can then sell the roof to locals who will not want to wait for long production runs or pay exorbitant shipping rates. Also, you may want to look at producing fender flares, front and rear spoilers, or a hood with vents that any knucklehead can install on a Saturday with chinese tools.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Ian F: Good idea. Too bad no contact info on the Warhorse site.

Try Facebook. It looks like they've had recent activity on their page.