not exactly helpful there Will
not exactly helpful there Will
I think you can actually see the unit body bending in this pic. Day 1 = subframe connectors, strut tower brace and rear brace.
Cool! You guys rock. I'm going to dig in and see what I can sort out.
Sounds like my plan to do a partial cage if not a full is a good one since chassis flex is a problem.
aussiesmg : Is yours caged?
ReverendDexter: Thanks for the post man! I breezed through it, now to go back and re-read.
How hard/reliable will rebuilding a 5.0 be? One of the things I've always wanted to do was a full rebuild. Any weak points I should address while rebuilding. Locally I've found a bunch of 5.0s for very cheap, but with high miles; they seem like good candidates.
Besides the obvious turny-go round issues, is there some other quirk I should fear?
If I can hijack I have some specifics
Its a challenger and an autocrosser
Is the 5 lug conversion really that important?
Are there disc brakes for the 4 lug?
What is the best way to address the front end issues within budget?
I can build the four link and panhard so that is good.
Who has some used coilovers for this car, I can make a set work if I have to.
(Gratuitous Beaver Shot)
No it's not caged
In reply to ls1fiero:
Rear brace? Between what / to what?
strut to strut, easy to make after looking at pics
http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-rear-shock-tower-brace-for-1979-thru-2004-ford-mustang.html
aussiesmg wrote: Q. Is the 5 lug conversion really that important? A. Only if you're open tracking. The biggest problem with the 4 lug design is with the wheel bearings/rotors. Rotors frequently crack under open track conditions. A worthwhile upgrade is Maximum Motorsports 4 lug kit, or you can piece together your own for cheaper. A big factor is getting the rear drums adjusted properly. These cars nosedive on braking and understeer relentlessly, so making sure the front has adequate grip will really help. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_136_141&products_id=676 Q. Are there disc brakes for the 4 lug? Yes, but see above. Front brakes are discs from the factory, there's a 73mm caliper upgrade that can give you a modest improvement, but for challenge auto-x speeds, it's probably not worth the money. Sticky tires, chassis stiffening, decent shocks, lowering springs, limited slip, and a bumpsteer kit would be my priorities (in that order). The rear disc options (t-bird, SVO, Cobra, etc.) probably aren't worth the headache for auto-x, but the full Cobra kit (M-2300K) would be a good idea for open track work. Q. What is the best way to address the front end issues within budget? A. Add back a front swaybar, these cars understeer with one, so without one is going to be worse. Remove the front swaybar to promote weight transfer at the drag strip, but you want a front bar for any handling activities. And add grip through sticky tires. Once you've covered the basics above, a good torque arm setup (either bought used or built) will really go a long way towards reducing brake dive and getting power down off the corners. The good news is that parts are plentiful and cheap. CL, corral.net, stangnet, etc. are great sources for parts. In terms of tech, corner-carvers.com and corral.net's open track / auto-x forum have some good info.
Honestly, if you're going the chassis stiffening route, go with welded full length subframe connectors, a strut tower brace (MM or Kenny Brown are solid choices), and a K-Member Brace (again, I'd go with MM and Kenny Brown). Griggs makes great stuff, but their prices are typically higher than the other two.
What is a good starting point for spring rates, I like them pretty hard
aussiesmg wrote: not exactly helpful there Will
Fair enough, but clearly, a big front sway bar will help keep the rear end planted--and since you currently don't have one, anything will be an improvement. Likewise, even a factory Trac-Lok diff will be a big improvement over an open diff. What are your goals/budget with the car--are you trying to keep it Challenge-priced so you can run it again next year? That will help people determine which parts to recommend to you.
The horrifically weak unibody on the Fox Mustang needs to be discussed. The early cars are known for cracking floorpans; you'll see them with the seats leaning in towards the center of the car. Any car you inspect as a potential purchase be diligent in looking for crash damage. Hit in the front, they are notorious for bend the front 'frame' rails. Some guys are good at fixing them, many are not because they often bend so far back gaining access with the engine still in can be problematic. I've junked quite a few because of front end sway.
I really, really wanted a Mustang for quite awhile but I've gotten over it. 
BMWs for me until I can afford a 911.
I think that Maximum Motorsports has the best answers. I did forget to mention Camber Caster Plates to cure the lack of adjustability in the front end . As for spring rates go big in the front like 700lbs and soft in the rear like 170lbs. I loved my Bilsteins with those springs. I think I have a Saleen rear shock brace in the garage. Let me know on that... There is no use wasting time with the 4 lug setup as factory Cobra stuff is SO MUCH BETTER and is easy to do. Call Robbie at MPS auto salvage in Statham Ga. 770 867 2644. They part out Mustangs and have a Road Racer that can really help with setup and used parts.
Definitely Challenge friendly, but it is going to be streetable and used in local autocrosses.
This body is pretty good with no evidence of crash damage, although the drivers seat was pulled out and the floor welded by me for a crack alongside the outer seat track about 12 inches long.
I have bolt in frame connectors and a lead on another set, if I use these I intend to weld them also.
I have a Steeda hollow front bar on the way.
I have a couple of OEM Trak Loks on the shelf but not sure if this is a 31 or 28 spline rear yet.
I really prefer coilovers so I can work on weight balance, decent shocks are important although if they work well adjustables aren't necessary.
Trying to see the best way to fix the inherent front end issues
Very possible I will cage it as a bolt in cage is not a hit on the budget.
Not worried about a "comfy" ride at all
I like where this is going . . .
I also have a set of 94 split 17s (lightest factory wheels made) with Kuhmo Victo Racers in the basement.
aussiesmg wrote: I really prefer coilovers so I can work on weight balance, decent shocks are important although if they work well adjustables aren't necessary. Trying to see the best way to fix the inherent front end issues Very possible I will cage it as a bolt in cage is not a hit on the budget. Not worried about a "comfy" ride at all
What's your budget for coil-overs? Maximum Motorsports has already been suggested, and they definitely sell good products. I always though their coil over conversion was pretty cheap, but I've never built anything on a challenge budget.
The budget is tight, I will build whatever I can and can trade for other parts, I got a lot of new parts with the car.
Coilovers need to be cheap but I can make them fit if they need to be modified, especially the rears
ls1fiero wrote: I also have a set of 94 split 17s (lightest factory wheels made) with Kuhmo Victo Racers in the basement.
Do you have pics and an idea on price, they could be used during the year so I can preserve the Hoosiers on the Pony rims for $2012
Steve
I wouldn't waste my money on a strut tower brace if you keep the stock inboard spring location up front.
Biggest advantage to the 5-lug swap is wheel selection. You can find whatever you want in 5x4.5, in the stock 4x4.25 you're pretty much limited to stock 4-lug foxbody wheels.
You can do the 5-lug swap on the cheap with ranger/bronco2/aerostar parts, lots of info to do that online.
To anyone recommending a rear brace between the shock towers in the back - what force is this resisting? I can't see how this is anything but unnecessary weight.
Will wrote:aussiesmg wrote: OK so how do I make my 86 $2011 Challenger turn without lifting it's hind leg to pee on the conesI think you just named your first three areas of improvement.it has no front sway bar, and open diff and soft soft suspension
Werd...
Seriously though, everything everyone is suggesting is spot on. Maximum Motorsports stuff bolts right in. The Kenny Brown Extreme Matrix Subframe Connectors & Jacking Rails is probably the best subframes on the market. Completely ties everything together. If you're not scared of welding, then get that kit and get to work. You'll be amazed. We put that setup in a '99 GT 'Vert and built a turbo motor for it and put down over 700 rwhp and have no problems with chassis flex. We also used the Maximum coilovers and K-Member/control arms with it. Gawd, what a fun car that was...
ReverendDexter wrote: To anyone recommending a rear brace between the shock towers in the back - what force is this resisting? I can't see how this is anything but unnecessary weight.
This + 100000
Send an email to mike.champ@hotmail. I'll send pics. $150 for the set. In reply to aussiesmg:
In reply to ReverendDexter: I am no engineer but was always told that keeping the shock towers from moving around under load would better allow the suspension to do its job. Total weight of the rear brace is probably 2lbs. You guys could have a valid point. I will defer to Maximum Motorsports on this.
Mustang Strut Tower Brace Tech Stiffen the front portion of the chassis with a Strut Tower Brace. Handling will improve, becoming more stable and predictable. •Unique design provides a load path between the two individual strut towers, and back to the firewall. This keeps the strut towers from moving relative to each other. Flexing of the strut towers, both fore/aft and side-to-side, causes unpredictable handling because the flexing causes alignment changes. •Increased chassis rigidity from the strut tower brace will reduce firewall and dashboard vibration, metal fatigue, and noise. Maximum Motorsports Strut Tower Brace features: •STB main tubes are made of rigid 1-1/4" diameter DOM tubing. This tubing is twice as stiff as the generally used 1" tubing, and DOM tubing is 30% stiffer than the more commonly used ERW, seamed tubing. •The brace rear support tubes bolt to the pinchweld that runs the width of the firewall. When attaching to sheet metal, the best mounting point is at a joint or a corner, such as the Mustang firewall pinchweld. This pinchweld is formed by folding and welding three pieces of metal (the upper firewall, the lower firewall, and the cowl floor) together. This provides an extremely stiff mounting point for our Strut Tower Brace. •Nearly all other strut tower braces attach to the very center of the firewall, its weakest and most flexible portion. Attaching there adds little stiffness, and leads to cracking and tearing of the firewall. •On 5.0L Mustang engines, MM Strut Tower Braces allow the use of all popular intake manifolds because no part of the brace passes over the top of the intake manifold. •Designed to allow the use of MM Caster/Camber plates. •Attached with high quality grade 5 hardware.
I have always thought a strut brace was a marketing exercise. Really we are strengthening the struts to resist flexing, yet the entire front end it located by flexible bushings. Even Delrin is going to flex more than the steel, so unless you have hiem joints throughout, (in which case the car should be caged anyway) what good can the strut brace really do.
Although some people swear by them and claim huge increases in grip, I cannot see how.
my .02c
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