hemi challenge car

4WD / AWD S-trucks used torsion bar front suspension. any potential for cross-pollenation there? since the front clip structure of the duster only carries the vertical forces that are transmitted through the dampers, i'm thinking that any front suspension using traditional coils or McStruts is going to require addition of significant vertical strength.

are you committed to any particular wheel/tire package? havign seen dusterbd13's car with the 17" mustang wheels on it, i'd love to see them on a dart. that would also give you a ton of room for a bigger front brake. i've got ideas, but need to investigate the OE drum and / or caliper attachments to the knuckles before i say anything else.

The Vic front end is too wide for a Dart. Unless this one wants to find its way into the Boxflairs thread. That would be both weird and cool.

There are a few aftermarket coil over front end kits available for the t-bar Mopars. Some drag race only, some nicely made street kits, some scary ones. But the stock geometry wasn't bad, and in a Challenge budget keeping it simple will work. They don't have the front end problems some of its contemporaries had at the time.

The stock front disks are 10 7/8". The "Cordoba" rotors are 11 3/4". There are some aftermarket kits for pizza pan sized rotors out there. And some cottage industry kits that use a combination of custom parts and off the shelf pieces like Mustang Cobra or Mercedes bits. A couple kits for using Viper calipers too. So stuff is out there, it's just not Miata/E30/P71 common.

Rob_Mopar wrote: The stock front disks are 10 7/8". The "Cordoba" rotors are 11 3/4".

For the weight of the car, the 10.875" is probably big enough. Challenge usage won't put too much heat into the brakes, even if there's nobody in the staging lanes there's enough cool-down between drag runs that the stock rotors should be fine. But if he decides to rock the 17" wheels, I'd find a way to put an S197 rotor and caliper on there -- like I did with my buddy's '68 Mustang.

Yea, the smaller rotors should be plenty for the Challenge. My Barracuda was running them at an autocross school I took it to and it did fine. A buddy did have some heat soak problems with his but he was running non-vented steel wheels and we were making hot laps. All was well with a little time to cool down.

The caliper adapters bolt to the spindle so making adapters for other calipers is possible. I think one of the cottage kits out there uses the late SN95 Cobra rotors and calipers. Don't know of any experiments with the later pony parts.

Rob_Mopar wrote: The caliper adapters bolt to the spindle so making adapters for other calipers is possible. I think one of the cottage kits out there uses the late SN95 Cobra rotors and calipers. Don't know of any experiments with the later pony parts.

Because the S197 has several "tuner" variants available, there are cheap zero-mile parts available. I know they package inside the SN95 bullitt wheels no problem because that's what we've got on my buddy's '68.

In reply to AngryCorvair:

Nice combo. I'm going to have to keep an eye out for some S197 bits. Don't have any buddies around here playing with one. Have a couple with the SN95 cars though.

In reply to Rob_Mopar:

You know you can get an upper ball joint adapter for the SN spindle to make it work for a upper A-arm suspension......

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You know you can get an upper ball joint adapter for the SN spindle to make it work for a upper A-arm suspension......

Now that's interesting. I have plenty on my plate now, but I'll file that one away for future reference.

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You know you can get an upper ball joint adapter for the SN spindle to make it work for a upper A-arm suspension......

i did not know that. i was thinking more along the lines of converting the '68 to MacStrut to get rid of those crappy OE upper control arm bushings.

AngryCorvair wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You know you can get an upper ball joint adapter for the SN spindle to make it work for a upper A-arm suspension......

i did not know that. i was thinking more along the lines of converting the '68 to MacStrut to get rid of those crappy OE upper control arm bushings.

I think it's Fatman that has a kit to convert the vintage Mustangs over to the late model strut front ends.

Don't know if any of this is helping John.

AngryCorvair wrote: you know the surface @ gainesville is smooth enough to not need IRS, so I'd concentrate on some teflon sheet between the leaves of the spring packs on the rear, and some slapper bars to keep the springs from winding up on launch. that's about all the rear should need. focus on the engine and trans swap, and maybe find a bolt-on solution for putting bigger front brakes on the car.

What is this about teflon in the leaf spring packs? Never heard about it before but maybe I could do it on my old fairlane. Its nothing special out back, but basically a mustang from the firewall forward.

Nitroracer wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote: you know the surface @ gainesville is smooth enough to not need IRS, so I'd concentrate on some teflon sheet between the leaves of the spring packs on the rear, and some slapper bars to keep the springs from winding up on launch. that's about all the rear should need. focus on the engine and trans swap, and maybe find a bolt-on solution for putting bigger front brakes on the car.

What is this about teflon in the leaf spring packs? Never heard about it before but maybe I could do it on my old fairlane. Its nothing special out back, but basically a mustang from the firewall forward.

it's something i learned from the street rod guys. i believe Posies called it their "super-slide" spring, don't know if he used teflon sheet or teflon button inserts in the leaves, but the idea is that it greatly reduces the friction between the individual leaves in the spring pack, which lets the suspension travel more freely and makes the ride less choppy.

I have been kicking around the idea of putting different junkyard suspension under my Duster, and on paper what seemed to work best was MKIII (86-92) Supra.

PROS:

-Track is pretty close. I believe the Supra is a little wider, but with modern low-offset wheels, it worked out to be more or less the same.

-Double wishbones front and rear.

-Rack and pinion steering (let's face it, mopar power steering from back in the day is gawdawful).
-Moderately good aftermarket support.

-Factory LSDs available

-Strong enough to hold up to whatever you want to throw at it

-Big-ass 4 wheel discs

-Same bolt pattern as mopar/ford (although backspacing issues would probably preclude running old-school mopar wheels). I was planning on getting some modern Mustang wheels for it, since they're cheap and plentiful and look good.

CONS:

-Best as I can tell, the Supra rear suspension doesn't just mount to a subframe a la Miata or Jag. It's a big, heavy, bulky unit and would require some engineering to get it mounted properly.

-Possible/probable relocation of the stock fuel tank and enlarging the wheelwells (although factory A-body wheelwells are pretty tiny anyway).

-Shock mounting up front might be an issue. Haven't really looked into this too deeply yet.

-I'm sure there are plenty of other issues, but on paper this was the front-runner.

AngryCorvair wrote:

Nitroracer wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote: you know the surface @ gainesville is smooth enough to not need IRS, so I'd concentrate on some teflon sheet between the leaves of the spring packs on the rear, and some slapper bars to keep the springs from winding up on launch. that's about all the rear should need. focus on the engine and trans swap, and maybe find a bolt-on solution for putting bigger front brakes on the car.

What is this about teflon in the leaf spring packs? Never heard about it before but maybe I could do it on my old fairlane. Its nothing special out back, but basically a mustang from the firewall forward.

it's something i learned from the street rod guys. i believe Posies called it their "super-slide" spring, don't know if he used teflon sheet or teflon button inserts in the leaves, but the idea is that it greatly reduces the friction between the individual leaves in the spring pack, which lets the suspension travel more freely and makes the ride less choppy.

I wonder if using a teflon coating, like the one's from Techline, etc would work better? Not sure about heating the entire spring up to 500 degrees for an hour to bake the coating into place, but they are supposed to be pretty damned durable. Interesting idea either way.

Also on the Supra swap, there was a gentleman that swapped the underpinnings from a Supra into a Mustang body. Lots and lots of work, but it was pretty cool when finished. Poke around for Suprang and maybe you'll find some details on the project.

http://www.scarebird.com/index.php?id=0

Brake kits for all sorts of cars!

psteav wrote: I have been kicking around the idea of putting different junkyard suspension under my Duster, and on paper what seemed to work best was MKIII (86-92) Supra...

Don't take this personally, but I cringe every time I read something like that. Between living in the rust belt and seeing too many good cars get cut up for something like this and never getting finished.

I'm not opposed to such things, just seen too much carnage vs. successful projects.

With that said, if the Duster is a Ruster, go for it.

The rear wheel wells are pretty generous on a Duster. I had 28x10.5 slicks on the back of mine (with Super Stock springs). The gas tank is inside the frame rails. Only seen Pro Street types of back halved cars running that much tire to need to move the tank.

Rob_Mopar wrote:

psteav wrote: I have been kicking around the idea of putting different junkyard suspension under my Duster, and on paper what seemed to work best was MKIII (86-92) Supra...

Don't take this personally, but I cringe every time I read something like that. Between living in the rust belt and seeing too many good cars get cut up for something like this and never getting finished. I'm not opposed to such things, just seen too much carnage vs. successful projects. With that said, if the Duster is a Ruster, go for it. The rear wheel wells are pretty generous on a Duster. I had 28x10.5 slicks on the back of mine (with Super Stock springs). The gas tank is inside the frame rails. Only seen Pro Street types of back halved cars running that much tire to need to move the tank.

Cringe all you want, but it's my damn car and I'll do what I want. Want me to email you video?

Seriously, though, this was originally a slant-six automatic car, no options, and no collectibility. It's not rusty anymore, but it was at one point, and the patch panels underneath are all homemade. It's nice driver quality, nothing more.

As for moving the gas tank, it's been a while since I was under mine, and I'm not sure it would have to be moved or not. I know the Supra IRS is biiiig.

28x10.5's? Did you have to roll the fender lips? What were you running for wheels and back axle? (Not doubting it, just curious as to the mix that made this work.)

psteav wrote:

Rob_Mopar wrote:

psteav wrote: I have been kicking around the idea of putting different junkyard suspension under my Duster, and on paper what seemed to work best was MKIII (86-92) Supra...

Don't take this personally, but I cringe every time I read something like that. Between living in the rust belt and seeing too many good cars get cut up for something like this and never getting finished. I'm not opposed to such things, just seen too much carnage vs. successful projects. With that said, if the Duster is a Ruster, go for it. The rear wheel wells are pretty generous on a Duster. I had 28x10.5 slicks on the back of mine (with Super Stock springs). The gas tank is inside the frame rails. Only seen Pro Street types of back halved cars running that much tire to need to move the tank.

Cringe all you want, but it's my damn car and I'll do what I want. Want me to email you video? Seriously, though, this was originally a slant-six automatic car, no options, and no collectibility. It's not rusty anymore, but it was at one point, and the patch panels underneath are all homemade. It's nice driver quality, nothing more. As for moving the gas tank, it's been a while since I was under mine, and I'm not sure it would have to be moved or not. I know the Supra IRS is biiiig. 28x10.5's? Did you have to roll the fender lips? What were you running for wheels and back axle? (Not doubting it, just curious as to the mix that made this work.)

You should save yourself the aggravation of all that Supra stuff and just put a gasser style straight axle in the front. Turns are only there to connect straightaways!

Mine has a mid to late '60's B-body 8 3/4 in it. It's a little wider than the stock Duster rear. Springs are in the stock location and wheels are just reproduction 8" Rallye wheels with 4.5" backspace. Slicks could have used a wider rim, but they came with the car when I got it. Plenty of room for more backsapce. Wheel lips are stock. The Super Stock springs lift the rear of the car a good bit, but there are plenty of guys running wide street meats on the back with lower ride heights and no clearance issues. The Darts & Scamps have smaller wheel openings that limit tire sizes.

The easier way to get more tire under the back with the solid axle is to relocate the springs over the frame rails. The inner tire sidewall will reach the spring in the stock location before reaching the frame rail. I'd have to measure it, but you'll gain at lease 2 1/2" inches going that way.

Ford T-bird IRS' have made their way under the rear of Darts. I've eyeballed the Cobra IRS under a buddy's Mustang and that might be possible as well.

On the front, as I've said here before, the torsion bar front end isn't a bad design under these cars. Plenty can be done with them without having to reengineer the whole car.

Yea, the power steering is a bit vague in stock form, but it was intended for little old ladies to be able to wheel their Polara wagon effortlessly to church and the grocery store. There are places like Firm Feel that can rebuild the box to a performance enthusiasts taste. Or fast ratio manual steering boxes from Flaming River. Firm Feel makes plenty of suspension upgrades for the old Mopars, and Hotchkis just released all new kits as well.

If you want R&P, Reilly Motorsports makes a very bolt in coil over front end that can support the load of the car. Not Challenge money, but nice stuff.

My basic idea with going with the Supra parts is that for less money, I could have something that would handle just as well and probably ride, stop and steer better than the torsion bars/leaf spring live rear axle setup ever could. It would definitely be more time and frustration involved, but I think the payoff in the end would be pretty worth it.

My goal is to find a wrecked/ragged/blown engine Supra Turbo for <$1000. Suspension, brakes, and manual trans will all find a home in the Duster eventually.

I'd spend that much just on getting the front end up to snuff (torsion bars, bushings, sway bar, shocks and that grand is gone). I added up what it would cost to buy all the aftermarket parts to make the Duster handle and stop like I want it to, and IIRC it was around $3k.

Are these Japanese parts going in an American car? Yep. Does that bother some people? Yep. I'm not one of them.

^Buddy has an 89 Supra Turbo sitting in our garage right now.... He only wants the motor.

Interested? I can see how much he'd want for the whole thing. We want the car OUT. It's a SUPER clean silver car. With your budget of $1000 or less, i'm pretty sure a deal could be worked out.

You'll feel bad, though... this car is BEAUTIFUL.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Tempting. I would hate to tear up a nice car.....but you say your roommate is already stealing the motor, so that's less guilt. And I do hate silver cars...

Is it a stick?

psteav wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Tempting. I would hate to tear up a nice car.....but you say your roommate is already stealing the motor, so that's less guilt. And I do hate silver cars... Is it a stick?

Nope it's an Auto. Trans probably won't come with it, though. It's a built/stalled/revised shift points auto that was mated to a "1.5jz."

If you're interested, shoot me an email. I can put you in contact with him. Car is in Indy.

psteav wrote: My basic idea with going with the Supra parts is that for less money, I could have something that would handle just as well and probably ride, stop and steer better than the torsion bars/leaf spring live rear axle setup ever could. It would definitely be more time and frustration involved, but I think the payoff in the end would be pretty worth it. My goal is to find a wrecked/ragged/blown engine Supra Turbo for <$1000. Suspension, brakes, and manual trans will all find a home in the Duster eventually. I'd spend that much just on getting the front end up to snuff (torsion bars, bushings, sway bar, shocks and that grand is gone). I added up what it would cost to buy all the aftermarket parts to make the Duster handle and stop like I want it to, and IIRC it was around $3k. Are these Japanese parts going in an American car? Yep. Does that bother some people? Yep. I'm not one of them.

I get what you're after, and don't have a problem with Japanese parts on an American car. Just too many people are quick to discount the torsion bar front end before even trying it. If you pull it all together put a thread up on here. I'd check it out.

Your $1000 budget doesn't include rebuilding the suspension from the donor. Keep in mind (or budget) there's no guarantee they are good right out of the donor.

psteav wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Tempting. I would hate to tear up a nice car.....but you say your roommate is already stealing the motor, so that's less guilt. And I do hate silver cars... Is it a stick?

Just wanted to highlight that part...

In reply to Rob_Mopar:

Way to take the high road.

Seriously, though, this is not a collectible vehicle. It was my first car, though, and I have owned it for the past 15 years. I will do my due dilligence before I dig into it. I have no intentions of screwing up the only material possession I own that has sentimental value enough that I will never sell it.

I'm not discounting the potential of the torsion bars. I know they can be made to do what I want, and fairly easily (although it would require a lot of aftermarket parts). The potential of a stick axle on leaf springs is kinda limited, though. Ditto the factory steering (high effort and quick ratio are not necessarily substitutes for good road feel.)

As for rebuilding things, I the stock suspension already needs bushings, tie rods and ball joints. I'm planning on rebuilding the donor car suspension anyway if it needs it.

At least part of this is just to be a little different. I like pissing people off who have a set mindset about how things should be modified. I seriously considered putting a turbo 2.2 in this thing for a while to anger the "musclecar purists" (although the mileage would have been nice too).

HalfTrac, unless your buddy has a screaming low-dollar deal to offer on the remnants of the supra, I'll probably pass. You're six hours away (although I do have a buddy in Indy I need to visit). What kind of money would we be talking about here?

In reply to psteav:

Yea, that was way too much for me to pass up. It's all in good fun. And for the record, I'd like to do something along those lines with an Opel Manta.

I haven't taken a good look at the front of one of those Supras. I suspect you're going to need to do a good bit of carving on the front inner structure of the Duster to make it fit. Worst case AMD is making new frame rails and inner fenders.

I've seen pictures of a '67 Barracuda where am entire FWD Mazda front clip was grafted into the car. Stock Barracuda sheetmetal outside. Pop the hood and an early '80's Mazda engine compartment was staring at you. I still don't understand that.