irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 6:03 p.m.

Honestly, I've never paid much attention to the Challenge, since Florida is way farther than I've been willing to go for it. But now I hear it's going to be at Summit Point, an hour from home, this summer.

So, since my wife will certainly not tolerate another project car around here, I'm left with a couple options:

First, I have the rallycross e30, which apart from a $200 M42 engine swapped into it and Bilsteins/springs, is mostly a stock car. I figure I've spend about $4k on it (including purchase price), but $700 of that was for the roll bar.....$500 of that for the Star Specs, $200 for rally tires, $300 for the crappy Sparco seats. I could probably take enough stuff off of it to get it to about $2k (put the stock radiator back on instead of the aluminum one, take the stainless skidplate off, etc etc etc). Again, not sure how that works. Car was rattle-canned, so cosmetics didn't cost much at least, lol.

Second, I have the e21, which I bought for $200 or so as a COMPLETE car with a good engine (I have the title with the sale price on it, and I posted it in my build thread 6 months ago before I was thinking about GRM challenge). The engine is already out, as I'm putting my spare M42 into it (which I bought 2 years ago for $150 locally and am rebuilding with STOCK parts, and no performance upgrades). I could find the seller and get him to sign an "affadavit" as to the sale price...didn't think to get a receipt since it was a spare engine. I can probably recoup the $200 or so by selling the stock engine, probably less. The car is in good shape and even the shocks are still good. ALl bushings need replacing, but someone told me that if I use OEM-equilvalent stuff there, it's budget-exempt. I could definitely do this car under $2k. Car has a full original interior in good shape (except for the carpet), FWIW.

So, since I'm working on the e21 anyhow, I'm leaning towards that. YEs, I know it wouldn't be very competitive in any category, but that's not a problem. But the posted GRM challenge rules aren't very detailed, so am trying to figure out a few things that perhaps you guys could help on:

  1. So...for suspension stuff....since I was going for a "stock-ish" restoration anyhow....if I use OEM/OEM-replacement bushings, tie rod ends, control arm balljoints, etc....those DO or DON'T count toward budget? I would probably do mostly stock stuff, maybe a poly bushing here or there, and some good shocks, and maybe cut the springs. But I planned to use mostly OEM-style bushings, motor mounts, etc.

  2. For engine.....I'm not doing much to it since it was a running engine, but it is getting a new HG, gaskets, seals, etc. I'm not doing any performance upgrades to it whatsoever. Just making it more reliable/refreshed at stock power levels. Does that stuff count?

  3. Tires.....since I need to get some for it anyhow, Kumhos are budget-exempt? I'd still need to find some wheels, since it's on two steelies and two e30 wheels right now.....

  4. How closely should stuff like spray paint and bondo be tracked? So far I'm just using leftover primers and bondo from other projects, so I can't really say "how much 8 half-empy rattle cans" cost. Do I just make an estimate, or is there an accepted "standard cost" for a rattle-can paint job?

I'm sure I"ll have more questions, but I keep hearing different takes on the rules so want to make sure I know what I'm doing before I decide to do this. Any other suggestions/comments/thoughts are totally welcome.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
11/18/13 6:27 p.m.

I would do the E21. Largely because given the talk at the open house about the Challenge at the $2013 Challenge I wouldn't count on roll bars not counting towards the budget. Supposedly new rules will be out beginning of December. There seem like there are going to be a number of changes and the rules simplified compared to now.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg MegaDork
11/18/13 6:27 p.m.

A Mini with ( a clever owner) and very few mods with over 200K took 8th overall.

Bring it and have fun, you will be back and you will know what to improve.

Have fun and learn is the best advice for the 1st showing

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 6:36 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: I would do the E21. Largely because given the talk at the open house about the Challenge at the $2013 Challenge I wouldn't count on roll bars not counting towards the budget. Supposedly new rules will be out beginning of December. There seem like there are going to be a number of changes and the rules simplified compared to now.

Not that it changes anything, but the rollbar in the e30 is bolt-in and can be removed pretty easily.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 6:39 p.m.
aussiesmg wrote: A Mini with ( a clever owner) and very few mods with over 200K took 8th overall. Bring it and have fun, you will be back and you will know what to improve. Have fun and learn is the best advice for the 1st showing

No question there. My goal isn't to be competitive, this would just be for fun. But that said, I am doing a restore of this car, so if I do GRM with it as well I want to make sure that stuff I'm doing isn't against the Challenge rules - not because the car will win, but because I like to play by the rules in whatever motorsport I'm in.

Basically....if I can do this within the rules I'd like to. But I want to be clear on exactly what is and isn't permitted. The rules say nothign about replacing dry-rotted old bushings, but everyone who has done GRM before seems to be of the opinion that this is a category where "OEM replacement is free." IDK...is it just a "prove that I didn't replace this OEM part" thing.....or is this actually permitted?

(note: neither of those things are true, guess I just screwed myself by posting this publicly, eh?)

Junkyard_Dog
Junkyard_Dog Dork
11/18/13 7:03 p.m.

I have to think that your replacements count towards the budget. If OEM replacement parts were free, you could restore the cheapest POS $2000 performance car you could find and clean up.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 7:09 p.m.

That's what I figured. I assume that it's a "don't ask don't tell" thing.....like "how are you going to prove my head bolts or my tie rod ends are new?" type of stuff.

In which case, my build thread here on the car totally screws me since I"m not leaving anything out that I do to the car....whereas if I did all this stuff privately and off the internet, nobody here or at the Challenge would be the wiser, and there would be no way prove that anything was new, especially if I "aged" it like some Lemons/Chump people have been known to do. But I can't replace the HG without getting new head bolts, since they're stretch bolts, at $8.50 EACH for OEM. So there goes $70 of budget just on stupid bolts that have no effect on performance. Just need to know if there's a gray area or not.

BTW - not complaining, just trying to clarify before I decide on whether or not to do it. The rules are the rules and I'll go by them if I do it, and if I can't go by them I won't do the Challenge.

STPR is that week too, so there's always an alternative anyhow.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 7:14 p.m.

Though I am still interested in if there is a way to enter with "assessed value" ...e.g. could I take off my rollbar, Sparco seats, etc and put my stock seats back in, and have the car "appraised" by GRM Challenge people to see if it would be legal, since I don't have a price list for it.

mazdeuce
mazdeuce SuperDork
11/18/13 7:17 p.m.

Over the years there have been a lot of gaskets/bolts reused that wouldn't have been if it weren't a challenge car.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 7:22 p.m.
mazdeuce wrote: Over the years there have been a lot of gaskets/bolts reused that wouldn't have been if it weren't a challenge car.

fair enough. I don't think my automotive paranoia of engines blowing up and suspensions falling apart would allow me to do that on a car I put time and effort into.....too much of a detail freak I am. So I guess GRM challenge isn't for me.

Guess I'll be at STPR that weekend

Thanks for the information, folks.

bluej
bluej Dork
11/18/13 7:46 p.m.

Dude. We need to talk :)

Edit: To clarify, in July I picked up a 325e for 1200 with the intent to join you guys rally crossing out at SP. Two weeks before the challenge, I concluded my long term build wasn't going to be ready and decided to bring the e30 instead. I picked up a "stupid ebay turbo kit" (for a 4 cyl) off these boards the next day and finished the install the morning of the autox. We finished a solid mid pack and would have been a fair bit higher w/ another half hour the day of the drags to figure out how to seal the boost leak.

I get the challenge. I could use someone else local who is in to wrench, especially someone with the org skills evident from your build threads.

I'm taking a break for the most part till after the holidays, but like I said, we should talk.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/18/13 7:50 p.m.
bluej wrote: Dude. We need to talk :)

moxnix
moxnix Reader
11/19/13 9:15 a.m.

If you guys should happen to talk and still need additional hands let me know....

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/19/13 4:52 p.m.

Sounds like a plan - though in the near-term most of my wrenching effort (aside from continuing work on the e21) will be toward the Chump e30 engine swap (if it happens) and other things with that car, which is inconveniently located up in Maryland . But especially in the spring I'd definitely be interested in helping out, once I'm done working weekends at the ski shop (for car money)

--

Looks like the e21 for GRM would have to be more "limited" in its refresh than I'd be comfortable doing, so that's out. BUT I am also still interested in the possibility of getting some kind of "comp value" for my rallycross e30 for the Challenge, if that kind of thing ever happens. IDK.

--

Shawn, if we have a work get-together, we could put some new shocks on your RX7

bluej
bluej Dork
11/19/13 5:27 p.m.

Irish, there are lots of questions to ask, but I think either your rally e30 or the e21 could be done. Much could depend on time frame. For instance, are there things you want to do to the e21 that would put you over or limit a challenge build that could wait till after the challenge? Remember, the configuration has to last a weekend, then could be changed.

Which would you rather work more on and see there in June? My gut says you lean towards the e21 so you can keep driving the set up rally e30 as-is for the spring.

When's the first event of next season, anyway? March?

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/19/13 5:42 p.m.
bluej wrote: Irish, there are lots of questions to ask, but I think either your rally e30 or the e21 could be done. Much could depend on time frame. For instance, are there things you want to do to the e21 that would put you over or limit a challenge build that could wait till after the challenge? Remember, the configuration has to last a weekend, then could be changed. Which would you rather work more on and see there in June? My gut says you lean towards the e21 so you can keep driving the set up rally e30 as-is for the spring. When's the first event of next season, anyway? March?

Season usually starts in March and we usually take a break for July/August due to heat and dust at Summit (though that could change this year if we use other venues).

Stripping the "expensive" stuff off the e30 wouldn't be hard or time-consuming, really. roll bar, seats, radiator, wheels, and my "good" brake pads for the OEM ones still sitting in a drawer. Pull off my gauge pod with all the working gauges. Pull off the momo steering wheel and put the stocker back on. ...

But again, this would all depend on whether the car would be allowed to get a "market value" rating and I could remove stuff from there to get it below $2014.

The e21....IDK. I wanted to get it painted "nice" before putting all the glass, engine, interior back in and that by itself is more than GRM budget. I don't want to put the glass back in with new seals, etc only to have to pull it back out again. Most of my old weatherstripping is already long thrown away. The suspension as-is might be able to handle some running, but I don't know. I've never driven the car.

Really I just hate to do things for the Challenge, and then have to re-do them "right" for the real build. I don't have enough car working time as it is, much less for duplication of effort.

So...we'll see how the e30 would work out I guess, and if it's allowable. Nobody yet has commented on how it works "if you already own it."

moxnix
moxnix Reader
11/19/13 6:12 p.m.
irish44j wrote: Shawn, if we have a work get-together, we could put some new shocks on your RX7

Inserts are in the house just waiting for me to cut up the old struts and put them together.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
11/19/13 6:26 p.m.

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