x2 on writing a letters to the SEB/STAC. It works, it helps.
I have done several, and one of them even resulted in a rules change beginning this year (foglamp removal).
x2 on writing a letters to the SEB/STAC. It works, it helps.
I have done several, and one of them even resulted in a rules change beginning this year (foglamp removal).
Soma007 wrote:Javelin wrote: Wow. That just shows the prevailing "attitude" in the SCCA. Yeah, I'm not important because I'm not on the STAC or ever raced Nationals. Forget the 25+ Regional events, Instructing in the novice schools and Street Survival Schools, writing articles for the Regional Newsletter, or helping setup and tear down and nearly every event. Yeah, us little guys don't matter, we should just pack our bags and go home.Again with the insane jumping to conclusions. I'm sure you're a valued member of your particular region. But that region is part of a bigger organization that generally sets the rules for our little sport. If you don't like the rules then there is a process for getting them changed. Have you tried writing a letter to the STAC? Venting your frustrations on this little corner of the internet is not going to get you anywhere no matter how right you think you are. BTW if the SCCA "attitude" bothers you so much then don't associate with them/us. Join NASA, form your own autocross club, take up golf, or whatever.
Wow, you really are determined to train-wreck a discussion into a personal bash-fest, aren't you? Do you really think I haven't or won't write in to the STAC? Because, ding-ding-ding, I have before and I did on this! In case you didn't notice, this is a "Motorsports" forum, and we tend to discuss things here, hence a thread for discussion.
And holy cow man, if an SCCA person had told me that last line in person I would have kicked his family jewels. That's pretty berkleying Bob Costas if you ask me.
Javelin wrote: The problem is in this proposal that newly opened ST class would then ALSO have to suffer the new cars (Mazda2, Fiesta, Fit, Yaris, etc). I'm saying the new stuff should get their own class, and then the real ST can come out and play and be the spot for new people to the sport to get in while the curmudgeons can play in STS with the Civic/CRX/Miata.
The "real ST" being old stuff that's slower than a 1989 Civic? Sorry, but I don't see much of a demographic for that.
I don't know about your region but around here novices rarely show up with older cars (where ever you draw that line). Besides, novices have their own class. Its called "Novice" and they can run there for three events while they feel things out.
Eh, STR stays the same
Soma007--not too far back, ST(S) was a very diverse class. Up until and including 2006. Now it is not. Do you think those other "real ST" cars just evaporated? No, they moved on in the sport and changed classes or maybe changed club affiliations. Locally (in a BIG region, and a BIG neighboring region) ST(S) used to have 20+ cars...now there are a few people like me who bang their collective heads agaist the wall trying to be the fastest knife at the gunfight against a small handful of EFs. Is that good for the sport?
There indeed is a demand and a demographic for the 'other' cars.
ST_ZX2 wrote: Soma007--not too far back, ST(S) was a very diverse class. Up until and including 2006. Now it is not. Do you think those other "real ST" cars just evaporated? No, they moved on in the sport and changed classes or maybe changed club affiliations. Locally (in a BIG region, and a BIG neighboring region) ST(S) used to have 20+ cars...now there are a few people like me who bang their collective heads agaist the wall trying to be the fastest knife at the gunfight against a small handful of EFs. Is that good for the sport? There indeed is a demand and a demographic for the 'other' cars.
Sorry, I haven't made my position clear. I do think moving the EF's out of ST is probably a good thing in the long run. But I don't think having separate classes for the older ST cars and the newer ones is necessary. If anything older cars may hold an advantage as they are generally much lighter and not much, if any less powerful. As the EF domination has proven weight is a very important factor when you're limited on tire size.
It'll be interesting to see which cars rise to the top of the new ST if the proposal passes. I think the ZX2, 318ti, and base Mini would all be good cars.
What I really disagree with is Mr. Javelin's conspiracy theory ramblings on how the SCCA is ruining everything.
What ST_ZX2 said. And YES most "novices" have older cars! Like 90's Escorts, Hyundai's, Focii, etc that all need a real class to drive in. "Novice" is nice and all (we have a year-long "Tuner" class after which you have to move to your real class), but that's not giving the majority of younger people a place to autocross.
Typical autocross from our region, Fun-Run class, Novice, and ST cars:
(Taken from AX #1 from Oregon SCCA)
Soma007 wrote: What I really disagree with is Mr. Javelin's conspiracy theory ramblings on how the SCCA is ruining everything.
And I disagree with you being a jerk. 
As I told the STAC I don't think they are going far enough with their list of cars. If they want ST to be newer cars I would just completely combine ST and STS into STS and then cherrypick out their listings for the new ST like they did with STR.
I am still annoyed by the aero / bodykit rule takeback. I am fairly skeptical of this proposal as I think the current ST class structure is getting pretty convoluted. They really need to clean it up a bit, currently you have an oddly defined set of cars that could be elegeble for a number of different "ST" classes each with its own rule set.
Mirroring the Street Prepared class structure could work IE STB, STC, STD... etc but I think it would only be really effective if it had a single rule set applied to a bunch of different "base" cars.
That being said I like the idea of allowing LSD's I think the RWD cars will extract a little more benefit from an LSD than a FWD car will and it may help the Miata guys deal with the civic...
Oh, I would love an LSD in STS! Hello FC RX-7 with FD Torsen! (Or 94-97 Miata really). I'd also love wide-open tuning that the piggyback will create (build a plug-in harness for MS, yes please!). Unfortunately, I truly think opening all that jazz up would kill the class and really I should go play in SSM or SP anyways.
I just don't want all that by sacrificing the "little guys" in the non-EF Civic's. I'm A-OK with the EF bumping to my class, even though it would kill me. I'm not OK with doing that so the 110HP/2200Lb Mazda2 (gee, those stats look awefully familiar) can go to ST.
ST_ZX2 wrote:Bobzilla wrote: THen find a better mousetrap. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You want to beat the EF, find that car. It's not the EF people's fault that they started with a great chassis, tons of options on tuning and sound engineering to build from.Maybe you missed it above--but what happened to your mousetrap...the GT Swift?
I got bored to be honest. C4's had hit rock bottom price wise, and I could sell the swift for enough money to buy a Z51 vette. Considering pushrod's and bowtie's run in my blood, a Corvette has always been on my list of must have's.
The swift I had finally figured out how to get the high spring rates in the rear to get it to rotate, and was able to get enough frtont camber to make it bite. I still think with enough development it could be that better mousetrap. But Igot tired of beating my head against a wall, a severe lack of support and a need to test and develop everything on your own.
So... I hit the easy button.
LOL Yeah, I can empathize. Is the new owner going to carry on, or is there a different destiny for that car?
he's actually using it for what the car was designed for... road racing. He's had it at Autbahn and Blackforrest(?)a few times. He's been happy so far. Apparently thoseR1R's have been a really good tire for that. Of course, with him in the driver's seat that car is still sub 2k lbs!
Bobzilla wrote: "Doomed"? I doubt it. Hell, Id think about prepping the Elantra again. MS the ECU, intake, exhaust, koni inserts, 650lb rear springs, 550 fronts with 22mm rear bar and camber plates sitting on 225/45/15's.... car would be an absolute ball again. Shoot, that car on H&R's, on 225/45/16 RS-2's and a 19mm rear bar with intake and exhaust won the Regional STS championship (before becoming ST). Luckily I no longer have to worry about it. They won't let C4's play in street tired classes so I get to play in R-comp classes on street tires in either SSM or BSP.
That would be a straight ST car, though, unless i'm missing something?
It would be doomed in STS, no doubt about it.
Javelin wrote: Bobzilla and celicahalftrack: It all depends on where the chips fall for the "allowed" cars AND the new allowed mods. If both of those cars stay in ST with the new Mazda2, etc, then yes, rock on. But what if they allow the LSD? Or disallow the ECU tuning? Or make the tire width 215 to accomodate the new cars? Again, I like a shake up, just not this one. There's WAY too many details being left out and again, ruining the 2 most popular classes at once is just very, very odd. See my STB/STC post above...
Both of which cars? I may have missed something?
yeah, that car was about 3-5 seconds slower on a 60 second course.
ST_ZX2 wrote: Move the just EFs and maybe the EGs--keep the rest. I'd take my chances against an Integra and an ACR (aready showed well vs. Mike Occhipinti driving his old Neon, which was the last non-EF to trophy at Nationals).
I agree with this. No sense in moving up the cars that aren't winning anyways, unless like i said before, they were allowed to run more tire or something. That could potentially be a decent equalizer.
The one that really gets me is the 6th gen Celica.
I wouldn't run a 6th gen celica against a Spec Civic on 225 width rubber any day of the week. I would, however, run it on 245 or 255 width without question.
The 6th gen Celica wasn't a danger in ST currently anyways. Oh well, apparently the 4th and 5th gen are staying behind. Hilarious that the fastest non-turbo Celica prior to 2000 was the 1989 Celica GTS. Still in ST, apparently.
Bobzilla wrote: THen find a better mousetrap. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You want to beat the EF, find that car. It's not the EF people's fault that they started with a great chassis, tons of options on tuning and sound engineering to build from.
The car(s) is out there. There's at least one person in this thread that is/was chasing them.
Soma007 wrote:ST_ZX2 wrote: Soma007--not too far back, ST(S) was a very diverse class. Up until and including 2006. Now it is not. Do you think those other "real ST" cars just evaporated? No, they moved on in the sport and changed classes or maybe changed club affiliations. Locally (in a BIG region, and a BIG neighboring region) ST(S) used to have 20+ cars...now there are a few people like me who bang their collective heads agaist the wall trying to be the fastest knife at the gunfight against a small handful of EFs. Is that good for the sport? There indeed is a demand and a demographic for the 'other' cars.Sorry, I haven't made my position clear. I do think moving the EF's out of ST is probably a good thing in the long run. But I don't think having separate classes for the older ST cars and the newer ones is necessary. If anything older cars may hold an advantage as they are generally much lighter and not much, if any less powerful. As the EF domination has proven weight is a very important factor when you're limited on tire size.
Bingo. Don't separate them. We own at least two cars that in ST prep, i'd be 100% sure that would be a good matchup for the Mazda2. The newest is a 94.
With the moving of the EF and perhaps the EGs to STS, I again really don't think any of the other cars on the proposed exclusion list need to be there. There would be pleanty of parity left in ST keeping the Neons, Integras and the RSs there, as well as the newer (under 10 yr old) cars like the MINI, Celica, ZX2 and the Focus (SVT and 2.3 in particular)...and the new lightweight B-Class cars (Fit/Mz2/Fiesta etc.).
None of these cars are going to consistantly beat a top EF consistantly regardless of who is driving or how well prepared the car is. I would think that we need to think in terms of a continuum...with the EF and EG on the left and someting like a Yugo all the way on the right. The middle has the current 'other' ST cars and the new B-class cars and the Heavy FWDs like the Rabbit and FSVT...
By taking off the far left side of the graph, things in the middle tighten up because each of those cars has strengths and weaknesses that overlap to some degree...so while there may be a 10-20 year old $H!TBOX that surfaces near the top, there should be other cars that are capable of being in the mix...just like STX has now (WRX/E36/E30/RX8/RSX etc...).
Capt Slow wrote: That being said I like the idea of allowing LSD's I think the RWD cars will extract a little more benefit from an LSD than a FWD car will and it may help the Miata guys deal with the civic...
Depends on the chassis. Ever drive a Mini with an open diff? Wheel spin city on corner exit, even on the base models. On the other hand I hear an EF Civic doesn't benefit much from one.
I'd love for my '94 Miata to get moved to STS with an LSD but I really doubt it'll happen. That really would make everything else in the class obsolete.
Javelin wrote:Soma007 wrote:Wow, you really are determined to train-wreck a discussion into a personal bash-fest, aren't you? Do you really think I haven't or won't write in to the STAC? Because, ding-ding-ding, I have before and I did on this! In case you didn't notice, this is a "Motorsports" forum, and we tend to discuss things here, hence a thread for discussion. And holy cow man, if an SCCA person had told me that last line in person I would have kicked his family jewels. That's pretty berkleying Bob Costas if you ask me.Javelin wrote: Wow. That just shows the prevailing "attitude" in the SCCA. Yeah, I'm not important because I'm not on the STAC or ever raced Nationals. Forget the 25+ Regional events, Instructing in the novice schools and Street Survival Schools, writing articles for the Regional Newsletter, or helping setup and tear down and nearly every event. Yeah, us little guys don't matter, we should just pack our bags and go home.Again with the insane jumping to conclusions. I'm sure you're a valued member of your particular region. But that region is part of a bigger organization that generally sets the rules for our little sport. If you don't like the rules then there is a process for getting them changed. Have you tried writing a letter to the STAC? Venting your frustrations on this little corner of the internet is not going to get you anywhere no matter how right you think you are. BTW if the SCCA "attitude" bothers you so much then don't associate with them/us. Join NASA, form your own autocross club, take up golf, or whatever.
For the record, I haven't been an SCCA member or competitor for years with my last entry circa 2004. I have no dog in this hunt, but I have learned opinions.
I had my azz regularly handed to me when I was running an under-prepped car and had a lot of fun. I read the rules, spent money, earned several regional championships, sold the car and didn't compete until I worked a co-drive deal with a great friend and competitor. It was all done because it was fun. Heck, I drove my lowly EF Civic Dx in ST the first year of the class, ran half the events and finished fifth overall for the season. It was still a lot of fun.
Rules won't discourage people from competing if they are truly motivated and interested. Autocross is a means for gearheads to enjoy their machines. Some "get it", some don't.
I always encouraged people to come out and run an event, giving them as much info on club rules and foibles as possible. I did the same for paddock newbies that I didn't know from squat.
Keep up with your efforts to enact the changes you see as necessary; that's how the system works. But, if your views are over-ridden by a majority of members who disagree, well, that sucks. Welcome to life.......
ST_ZX2 wrote: Move the just EFs and maybe the EGs--keep the rest. I'd take my chances against an Integra and an ACR (aready showed well vs. Mike Occhipinti driving his old Neon, which was the last non-EF to trophy at Nationals).
FWIW, an Integra can be just as fast as an EF, and it's still a 20 year old car. If the goal is to create somewhere competitive for newer cars, leaving Integras and Neons behind to beat up on them is no better than the current situation.
DILYSI Dave wrote:ST_ZX2 wrote: Move the just EFs and maybe the EGs--keep the rest. I'd take my chances against an Integra and an ACR (aready showed well vs. Mike Occhipinti driving his old Neon, which was the last non-EF to trophy at Nationals).FWIW, an Integra can be just as fast as an EF, and it's still a 20 year old car. If the goal is to create somewhere competitive for newer cars, leaving Integras and Neons behind to beat up on them is no better than the current situation.
I don't doubt that they can be, and i think there's other cars out there that can be as well... (That one 240 a couple years ago is proof)
But they haven't been, so why punish them now? Move the EF, wait a year or two for the next completely dominating car to surface, then move that, too.
Hell, that basic logic could create an interesting formula for classing.
Have ST feed the higher classes.
If any one car takes 4 of the top 5 spots at nationals in ST, move it up. If any one car takes 4 of the 5 spots at Nationals in STS, move it up.
Do it every year it happens until you get the desired mix.
It's not going to happen, but it could be a "self-fixing" scenario.
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