Honda - I love you; and Saab - really, REALLY?

So I had to do some regular maintenance yesterday on some of the fleet. A few jobs:

1. all 8 brake pads on the 185k mile honda odyssey
2. engine oil and filter change on said odyssey
3. engine oil and filter change on 185k mile saab 9-3
4. manual transmission fluid change on said 9-3

First off, I bet I spent about an hour total on the honda and 3 on the saab. For the honda, I think I needed 7 tools total (Jack/stand, 22mm lugnut socket, 17mm, 14mm, 12mm, channelocks, oil pan). For the saab, I needed 11 (Jack/stand, 17mm lugnut socket, 13mm, 8mm hex key, 8mm hex socket, 3 3/8 drive extensions, fluid pump, giant prybar, oil pan).

In the honda, everything is designed to make maintenance easy. All the brake pads change easily with only removing the two caliper slide bolts. Don't have to do anything silly like twist to push the caliper pistons back in. Did I mention the front brakes are MASSIVE twin piston design? May be a nice upgrade for acura TSX's. Unfortunately the oil filter drains kinda right on a subframe piece, making a bit of a mess, but the filter is really easy to get to. Oil weight is printed right on the filler cap too, can't forget.

In the saab, its like factory engineers didn't even try to do the maintenance once. For one, the oil dipstick is IN THE FILL TUBE, which at first seems like a good idea. Then you try to add oil, and realize after each addition you need to wait 5-10 minutes for all the oil to drain down the tube walls before you can get an accurate reading. WAT. To make matters worse, the transmission drain plug is samwiched within an inch of the crossmember requiring a giant prybar to get a hex key into and out of it. The fill plug is buried deep into the wheel well, but at least with about 20 inches of extension there is a straight shot to it - after you take the wheel off. Good luck filling without a hose and a fluid pump though. I realize there is an additional filler on top of the trans, but you still need to remove the wheel well one to check the level. And the filler is arguably harder to get to than the level check hole!

TLDR: Honda, thanks for making maintenance easy. Maybe that's why your cars stay on the road, because maintenance is easy and people are more inclined to do it. Saab - what the heck.

My Accord? Super easy to work on when required. Almost 6 years old with 136,400 miles and the original brake pads have some some meat on them. My thought is to buy pads from the dealer - totally unheard of doing that my entire life.

What has idiot has 2 thumbs and considers buying brake pads from Honda? This guy.

Ease of Maintenance is what got me onto Honda's back in the 80's.

I've never owned a Saab, but I used to curse the later Hondas we owned. It seems to take one thing off, you have to take something else off. Went to change the alternator on my son's Civic and ended up inventing new curse words. And the front brake rotors on the Accord??? Please.

I worked as a dismantler at a upullit briefly. When you got a Saab the other guys either laughed or bought you lunch.

My darling wife bought a mid 90's Saab 9000 sort of 5 door hatch and I really loved the 2.0 l NA 5 speed combo, the road manners, look, and utility but I hated wrenching on it because they did not design maintenance into it at all. It could not have been more different than the other Swedes in my life. And I love wrenching on the 96 civic, with the odd exception that the oil filter is PIA to get to and spills everywhere no matter what. I know nothing about newer Hondas.....

I told my poor buddy I'd do the brakes on his accord and estimated 30 minutes to do new front pads and rotors. Then I looked at them. Luckily the second side only took one hour.

spitfirebill wrote: I've never owned a Saab, but I used to curse the later Hondas we owned. It seems to take one thing off, you have to take something else off. Went to change the alternator on my son's Civic and ended up inventing new curse words. And the front brake rotors on the Accord??? Please.

I've done a rotor change on the '01 Accord we had. Nothing sticks out as being particularly difficult ... what am I missing ??? Or, have they gotten more difficult since then?

90-97 Accords had captive rotors.

My favorite feature of our Honda Fit is the cutout in the fender liner perfectly positioned and sized for a socket and extension - this is for turning the engine while adjusting the valves. You don't have to jack it up or take off a wheel.

While there are some things that are annoying to work on on that car, mostly due to its diminutive nature, little stuff like that makes it so much easier.

The calipers on my W126 took only a little bit of fiddling, but once I figured out how the pins went it was simple. Owning all manner of 17mm sockets and ratchets will get you far with a W126.

That's why I love the Koreans for maintenance. Everything is easy and you need a 10, 12, 14, 17, 19 and 21 to disassemble the entire car.

The truck I start tonight. To do a trans fluid/filter change, the y-pipe has to come out. That's 6 15mm nuts (3 on each mani) and 2 large bolts of indeterminate size at the rear, unplugging 4 O2 sensors and setting it off to the side, THEN I can actually start touching the trans.

A few thoughts:
The captive rotors on the Accord (others?) cannot EVER be reconciled. EVER. There is no oil filter placement that can erase the hate I have for the engineers responsible.
I have never worked on a SAAB, but the mention of the drain plug being that close to a cross member makes me wonder if you might have a motor or trans mount that gave up the ghost?

Here's what a friend of mine from Germany told me to explain why German cars (could apply to other European countries?) are a pain to maintain. In Germany, maintenance is part of the ownership experience, so...
1 - Either the car goes to the dealer for the whole day (there is no waiting for your vehicle, you drop it off and pick it up tomorrow).
or
2 - You maintain your own car. Everything you do takes your whole Saturday. You look at that time as an investment in your car. Take your time, look other things over.
I don't know if that's true, but it seems to fit.
Here in the US, our mentality is 'my car needs an oil change. Can you do that as I drive down I-75? Why not?'

In reply to DrBoost:

I thought about mounts too, but after searching google, this is just how it is supposed to be. Many people cut the end off their 8mm hex keys just to get one to fit. Mine was close enough that a prybar got me the last 1-2mm I needed.

You guys that don't live in the rust belt still see Accords with captive rotors? I bet its been 10 years since I dealt with that foolishness.

DrBoost wrote: Here's what a friend of mine from Germany told me to explain why German cars (could apply to other European countries?) are a pain to maintain. In Germany, maintenance is part of the ownership experience, so... 1 - Either the car goes to the dealer for the whole day (there is no waiting for your vehicle, you drop it off and pick it up tomorrow). or 2 - You maintain your own car. Everything you do takes your whole Saturday. You look at that time as an investment in your car. Take your time, look other things over. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to fit. Here in the US, our mentality is 'my car needs an oil change. Can you do that as I drive down I-75? Why not?'

Funny that you mention that, but it's pretty accurate in my experience, too. Also of note is the prevalence of older Mercedes, especially when compared to BMWs. Mercedes are everywhere in Dresden, but BMWs older than 10 years are very light on the ground, sans the goofy 3er hatchbacks.

Kartoffelbrei wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Here's what a friend of mine from Germany told me to explain why German cars (could apply to other European countries?) are a pain to maintain. In Germany, maintenance is part of the ownership experience, so... 1 - Either the car goes to the dealer for the whole day (there is no waiting for your vehicle, you drop it off and pick it up tomorrow). or 2 - You maintain your own car. Everything you do takes your whole Saturday. You look at that time as an investment in your car. Take your time, look other things over. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to fit. Here in the US, our mentality is 'my car needs an oil change. Can you do that as I drive down I-75? Why not?'

Funny that you mention that, but it's pretty accurate in my experience, too. Also of note is the prevalence of older Mercedes, especially when compared to BMWs. Mercedes are everywhere in Dresden, but BMWs older than 10 years are very light on the ground, sans the goofy 3er hatchbacks.

One (maybe silly question):

Why does that mentality somehow make it OK to have really ridiculous maintenance procedures?

Robbie wrote:

Kartoffelbrei wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Here's what a friend of mine from Germany told me to explain why German cars (could apply to other European countries?) are a pain to maintain. In Germany, maintenance is part of the ownership experience, so... 1 - Either the car goes to the dealer for the whole day (there is no waiting for your vehicle, you drop it off and pick it up tomorrow). or 2 - You maintain your own car. Everything you do takes your whole Saturday. You look at that time as an investment in your car. Take your time, look other things over. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to fit. Here in the US, our mentality is 'my car needs an oil change. Can you do that as I drive down I-75? Why not?'

Funny that you mention that, but it's pretty accurate in my experience, too. Also of note is the prevalence of older Mercedes, especially when compared to BMWs. Mercedes are everywhere in Dresden, but BMWs older than 10 years are very light on the ground, sans the goofy 3er hatchbacks.

One (maybe silly question): Why does that mentality somehow make it OK to have really ridiculous maintenance procedures?

I agree that it shouldn't! In my limited experience with my own W126 Mercedes, I don't think it does.

VAG and BMWs I feel are pretty complicated (we're talking early 2000s on up here,) and more than likely cost-prohibitive to constantly dealer service. Strangely though, VAG products also handily outnumber BMWs. That's a long way to say, ich habe keine Ahnung.

(almost) Every make has it's great stuff and terrible stuff.

On my Accord, the timing belt tensioner was stupid, on the newer Civic it was great. The PT Cruiser was easy to get at the suspension, but idiotic to work on the engine. Old GM's are so easy to find parts for, but you pretty much know their exhaust bolts are all going to break the second you look at them wrong. The Minivan oil filter is PURE brilliance, but the brakes are absurd.

Robbie wrote:

Kartoffelbrei wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Here's what a friend of mine from Germany told me to explain why German cars (could apply to other European countries?) are a pain to maintain. In Germany, maintenance is part of the ownership experience, so... 1 - Either the car goes to the dealer for the whole day (there is no waiting for your vehicle, you drop it off and pick it up tomorrow). or 2 - You maintain your own car. Everything you do takes your whole Saturday. You look at that time as an investment in your car. Take your time, look other things over. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to fit. Here in the US, our mentality is 'my car needs an oil change. Can you do that as I drive down I-75? Why not?'

Funny that you mention that, but it's pretty accurate in my experience, too. Also of note is the prevalence of older Mercedes, especially when compared to BMWs. Mercedes are everywhere in Dresden, but BMWs older than 10 years are very light on the ground, sans the goofy 3er hatchbacks.

One (maybe silly question): Why does that mentality somehow make it OK to have really ridiculous maintenance procedures?

I think they don't see it as ridiculous. If it were easy, they'd still drop it off for a day. I think, though, because the engineers don't have to design for service, they are free of that one possible compromise.

which Chrysler is it that you have to pull the bumper cover to get at the battery?

In reply to mad_machine:

I know for sure the Sebring convertible is one. Maybe it's all cloud cars? I know the penultimate edition of the Sebring convertible used a side post battery in the wheel well.

Here's the real deal. The manufacturers aren't worried about maintenance because they design it to only last until it's out of warranty, then they want you to buy another one. Anything you do to make it last longer means it will delay your purchase of a new vehicle.

I'm not an authority, but I've read many times that the reason you can get the "Yo JDM" stuff over here is that in Japan, after a car is 4-6 years old, it has to be completely disassembled and inspected before it remain on the road. As a result, once a car reaches that milestone, they ship them out of the country for resale. You think our car manufacturers have good lobbyists? I'm guessing theirs are better.

djsilver wrote: Here's the real deal. The manufacturers aren't worried about maintenance because they design it to only last until it's out of warranty, then they want you to buy another one. Anything you do to make it last longer means it will delay your purchase of a new vehicle. I'm not an authority, but I've read many times that the reason you can get the "Yo JDM" stuff over here is that in Japan, after a car is 4-6 years old, it has to be completely disassembled and inspected before it remain on the road. As a result, once a car reaches that milestone, they ship them out of the country for resale. You think our car manufacturers have good lobbyists? I'm guessing theirs are better.

All of the Japanese inspection programs are designed to support the manufacturers. If it costs half a car to inspect your 5 year old one, Toyota gets to sell you a new car.

Small tractors are even worse. I forget the specifics, but there is a pretty good reason you see a whole lot of two year old Kubota tractors over here. Kubota Japan loves it, Kubota North America hates hates hates it.

mad_machine wrote: which Chrysler is it that you have to pull the bumper cover to get at the battery?

Sebring/Cirrus. It was actually behind the drivers fender liner behind the wheel. So, remove wheel, remove 20 clips, pull the liner, watch battery cable disintegrate when you touch it, replace engine harness....