Civic line is getting major revamp. Which is the reason si went on "hold"
2022 will be a good civic model year
Civic line is getting major revamp. Which is the reason si went on "hold"
2022 will be a good civic model year
I'm ok with it. Would be more OK if someone figured out what it takes to make the current generation of Honda automatics track/race-capable.
In reply to boxedfox (Forum Supporter) :
The 9 speed twin-clutch is a very nice trans.
It's also not a Honda unit.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Isn't the 9-speed ZF transmission the one that everyone was complaining about?
I think what bugs me most about this move away from small cars like the Fit and towards bigger CUVs is that the CUVs are somehow cramped for space! I look at the cool coupe CUV that everyone has put out, like that Mustang EV, and I groan.
Doesn't anyone want a car that can carry stuff?
If I designed a car, it would basically be a modern version of my Festiva. Light, fuel efficient (40mpg+), lots of interior space, fun to drive.
And no one would buy it.
In reply to CyberEric :
I agree. For example, I really want to like the Toyota C-HR. It's good looking, is the right height for mobility-challenged passengers, and has a nice looking interior. But it rides like my old 2009 Yaris Sedan and has even less interior room. Similar story with the Honda HR-V. I really want to like it, but it's somehow worse than a Fit.
My perfect daily is a 4 door hatchback with 3 pedals rear wheel drive, and around 200 hp at around 2500 pounds
In reply to Justjim75 :
Oh man, you're spot on. I forgot the RWD part.
Sadly, that car doesn't exist to my knowledge.
Its odd that other markets often get a choice of 2 or 4 door cars of the same platform, but here in the US, its ugly 4 doors only for the most part. In the past (up to the 2000's) you could have 2 or 4 doors, hatch, or wagon on the same platform. Granted this started going down in the late 90's but there were still some choices out there.
2 doors seemed to be the best sellers. Why turn away from these markets? No reason a 2 door CUV/SUV can't be built either.
Enthusiasts don't buy as many cars as in the past, true. Is this because there are less cars targeting them or they have become so expensive not enough people can afford them?
If manufacturers don't built it and dealers don't stock it, people can't buy it.
Can anyone get the production numbers for 2 door vs 4 door for these cars? (When there was a choice)
Ford Focus, VW Golf/GTI, Chevy Cobalt, Honda Civic.
In reply to Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) :
IIRC the way cars are cettified in the US has something to do with it. Like two door, four door, wagon, etc all have to be individually certified.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:2 doors seemed to be the best sellers. Why turn away from these markets? No reason a 2 door CUV/SUV can't be built either.
2 doors are not the best sellers.
From C&D:
The company cites slow sales as the reason for dropping this body style: while the current, tenth-generation Civic coupe made up around 16 percent of sales when it debuted in 2016, it now represents just 6 percent of the mix, according to Honda.
Honestly I can only think of one car available in a 2 & 4 door version where I prefer the 2 door, and that would be an Integra. (And I might change my mind after trying to live with one)
Honda sold 85,000+ HRVs in 2019. That will probably go up by a large percentage of the 35,000 Fit's that were killed off.
Honda sold 379,000+ CRVs and another and 65,000 RDXs. That tops the 291,000 Accords by a lot. The investment will go there, not a low-take manual sadly.
Also, Honda sold 170 NSXs. Poor NSX, at least it beat the Ford GT at 126.
ProDarwin said:Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:2 doors seemed to be the best sellers. Why turn away from these markets? No reason a 2 door CUV/SUV can't be built either.
2 doors are not the best sellers.
From C&D:
The company cites slow sales as the reason for dropping this body style: while the current, tenth-generation Civic coupe made up around 16 percent of sales when it debuted in 2016, it now represents just 6 percent of the mix, according to Honda.
Honestly I can only think of one car available in a 2 & 4 door version where I prefer the 2 door, and that would be an Integra. (And I might change my mind after trying to live with one)
Really not sure how the sedan is, but the two door version in my experience functions well as a multi-purpose vehicle that can handle track duty while also being able to carry a set of tires, jack/tools, and a bag of clothes and still have room for one other passenger. I think the difference is having a hatch instead of a trunk
In reply to aw614 :
In an average year, how many people are buying new Civics to track and then throwing tires, etc into them? Think it's into double digits?
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:Enthusiasts don't buy as many cars as in the past, true. Is this because there are less cars targeting them or they have become so expensive not enough people can afford them?
Yes.
The median expendable income has been flat since the 80s for everything but the top 10% of jobs. All other costs of living have been increasing since then. People who have the means to drop an average of $35,000 on a new car are not the ones who are enjoying their single life while working at an entry level job. The median age of new car buyers has subsequently increased to match where the chance of wage growth has gone, and last I read was now something like 57(!) years old.
So yeah, think about what car your grandparents were driving when you were a kid, and that's your target audience.
aw614 said:Really not sure how the sedan is, but the two door version in my experience functions well as a multi-purpose vehicle that can handle track duty while also being able to carry a set of tires, jack/tools, and a bag of clothes and still have room for one other passenger. I think the difference is having a hatch instead of a trunk
Yeah the Integra is a bit of an oddball here.
For the current Civic though, afaik, there is nothing the 2 door version does that the 4 door doesn't do equal or better.
dropstep said:Not surprising, everyone I know who's shopped for new econobox cars has bought Kia/Hyundai because of the price and warranty. Enthusiasts aren't buying new cars at near the rate of normal people. A lot of the fleets that used to be Honda or American cars are now all Kia around here
While I see plenty of Kia/Hyundai late-model econoboxes on my commute around here, my guesstimate is that I see more VW Jetta/Golf/GTi variants than anything else in that category. Maybe in this area people buy the cheapest German cars just so they can pretend it's not far removed from owning the Audi or BMW that everyone else has (wheres the Korean cars, though very good, may not have quite the "status" yet). IDK. But I do knwo I see a crapload of late-model Golf/GTIs in my commute - far more than I see Civics, Fits, or Koreans.
And one thing to note is that VW seems to be one of the few that hasn't sloped the rear window ridiculously on the hatchbacks, so it's still pretty functional as a larger-volume cargo-carrier compared to some of the other hot-hatches out there.
STM317 said:In reply to aw614 :
In an average year, how many people are buying new Civics to track and then throwing tires, etc into them? Think it's into double digits?
But I wasn't referring to that and just my personal experiences of an older car that I preferred the usability of the hatch vs the sedan with how much it carries.
When you have a four door hatch vs 3 door hatch, most people are going to probably prefer to choose the 5 door version instead. I know I did when I looked at GTIs and also probably why it doesn't exist.
The point I should have made and mentioned after owning both a Civic Coupe, Sedan, and Integra, I prefer the Integra style for all-around use and you get similar verstility in the current civic hatchback and Type R but with the two extra doors.
ProDarwin said:aw614 said:Really not sure how the sedan is, but the two door version in my experience functions well as a multi-purpose vehicle that can handle track duty while also being able to carry a set of tires, jack/tools, and a bag of clothes and still have room for one other passenger. I think the difference is having a hatch instead of a trunk
Yeah the Integra is a bit of an oddball here.
For the current Civic though, afaik, there is nothing the 2 door version does that the 4 door doesn't do equal or better.
Agreed, I think the current civic hatch probably sold better. Any one have sales numbers?
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:dropstep said:Not surprising, everyone I know who's shopped for new econobox cars has bought Kia/Hyundai because of the price and warranty. Enthusiasts aren't buying new cars at near the rate of normal people. A lot of the fleets that used to be Honda or American cars are now all Kia around here
While I see plenty of Kia/Hyundai late-model econoboxes on my commute around here, my guesstimate is that I see more VW Jetta/Golf/GTi variants than anything else in that category. Maybe in this area people buy the cheapest German cars just so they can pretend it's not far removed from owning the Audi or BMW that everyone else has (wheres the Korean cars, though very good, may not have quite the "status" yet). IDK. But I do knwo I see a crapload of late-model Golf/GTIs in my commute - far more than I see Civics, Fits, or Koreans.
And one thing to note is that VW seems to be one of the few that hasn't sloped the rear window ridiculously on the hatchbacks, so it's still pretty functional as a larger-volume cargo-carrier compared to some of the other hot-hatches out there.
Sounds like you could be experiencing the "GTA Effect."
Unlike the slight that Keith made towards a lot of us....I make a lot of new car purchases, so yea I'm legit sad to see some viable options off the table. Some for work, some for pleasure. I leased a new 2018 Honda Fit Sport in January of 2018 for work and absolutely loved that little car. The 6-speed was excellent even though the final drive made it cruise at highway speeds in the same RPM range that the previous generations 5-speed did. It still netted me around 37MPGs driving all over the country with an average of 500lbs of cargo in the car, not including myself. I was sad to turn that car in and sad to see it go with the recent announcement, I'm still going to try and track one down to have as a solid daily in Florida. Toting kids around in an E36 is one of the dumber things I do in life, even though they love that car.
I also purchased a 2020 Si for myself earlier this year. As others have said the rear seat in the coupe isn't viable for anyone over 5 ft tall. The sedan is a more practical purchase even though it's a fugly car past the front end. The manual in the Accord was similar to rowing through a Subaru transmission but still a great option.
If anyone wants to know how to make the 9 and 10 speed Honda autos trackable.....reach out to the guys at HMA. They race Odysseys, MDXs, Accords, etc. I've talked to those guys on multiple occassions at events and they are always more than willing to share information to customers, enthusiasts, and anyone willing to engage in conversation.
I.e. the 5-speed in older generation J3x powered Accords and Odysseys will track well with a transmission cooler and some high end trans fluid and thats it.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:And one thing to note is that VW seems to be one of the few that hasn't sloped the rear window ridiculously on the hatchbacks, so it's still pretty functional as a larger-volume cargo-carrier compared to some of the other hot-hatches out there.
Bingo. I went from a Volvo 240 Wagon to a Mazda3 hatch, and the amount of space intruded by that sloping rear glass is real. I also recall looking up the dimensions of the 3 sedan and hatch and seeing that they made the hatch 3 inches _shorter_ than the sedan, even though the wheelbase is the same. 3" may not seem like much, but it would be the difference between fitting my recycling containers in there with the seats up vs having to fold them down. And this is a 2018 MY car. The 2020's look to be even more compromised, to the point where the hatch isn't any more functional than the sedan, it's just a styling exercise.
In the end the Mazda won over the VW because of it's N/A engine and better perceived reliability. But I still wish I could've gotten a bit more cargo area in the bargain.
Bring back the boxy hatch!
I am going against the grain here, but I think Honda missed it by not putting the automatic in the SI. I know several people that were looking at cars that passed by a Honda because they wanted the SI and it didn't come in an automatic. With incredibly low manual sales, they pushed the SI to the back of the lot by not offering people that don't want to shift a version. One female friend of mine ended up with a WRX instead, when she desperately wanted the Honda, but didn't like the standard Civic as far as performance.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah the new 3 looks like it has incredibly cramped rear cargo capacity. I’m with you, I want something more functional.
My Festiva can fit a shocking amount of stuff in it, even though it’s tiny. Boxy is best.
ProDarwin said:aw614 said:Really not sure how the sedan is, but the two door version in my experience functions well as a multi-purpose vehicle that can handle track duty while also being able to carry a set of tires, jack/tools, and a bag of clothes and still have room for one other passenger. I think the difference is having a hatch instead of a trunk
Yeah the Integra is a bit of an oddball here.
For the current Civic though, afaik, there is nothing the 2 door version does that the 4 door doesn't do equal or better.
When I referred to 2 doors outselling 4 doors, I was referring to 80's-90's-00's compacts like the Cavalier/Cobalt, Escort/Focus, Civic and Golf. I didn't do a good job of making that clear. Again it would be great to get some real sales data. I agree the current sales are very low but again, you can't buy what they don't build. Yes, a hatch can be more useful than a trunk.
What can a 2 door do better than a 4 door?
1. Ease of entry. A 2 door car will have a much larger door opening. If you're a taller or larger person this makes getting in and out much easier. I can't tell you how many times I've hit my head on a 4 doors b-pillar or had to make an uncomfortable twist to get in. I'm only 5'10", perhaps I'm just clumsy?
2. Fewer blindspots. Pillars keep getting bigger and bigger. The b-pillar on a coupe is often thinner and moved further back out of your vision. (if it even has one) In a 4 door, that pillar is right next to my head. A major distraction I have to peer around all the time. Every time I look to the left I see a pillar, not the car next to me.
3. Ease of reaching the back seat. Now this is a debatable point. Large items can be more easily put in through a rear door, true. How often does one really need to do this? All the time? if so maybe a wagon would be a better option (bigger trunk). Smaller items can be reached without the annoyance of opening another door when you can just reach behind the seat on a coupe. If you need to put people in the back on a regular basis, yes 4 doors are convenient. Not everyone needs that though.
4. Less parts/maintenance/weight. Coupes weigh less and have fewer parts. A small thing, but every bit helps. 2 fewer doors means less things to leak, rattle, and break. The body will be stiffer too.
5. Retain value. As cars age, 2 door versions are far more sought after than their sedan counterparts. This isn't just for performance models, "regular" cars see the same thing. Is an E30 coupe worth more than a sedan in the same condition? a '77 Cutlass Supreme 4 door isn't worth much, but a 2 door will bring money.
volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) said:irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:And one thing to note is that VW seems to be one of the few that hasn't sloped the rear window ridiculously on the hatchbacks, so it's still pretty functional as a larger-volume cargo-carrier compared to some of the other hot-hatches out there.
Bingo. I went from a Volvo 240 Wagon to a Mazda3 hatch, and the amount of space intruded by that sloping rear glass is real. I also recall looking up the dimensions of the 3 sedan and hatch and seeing that they made the hatch 3 inches _shorter_ than the sedan, even though the wheelbase is the same. 3" may not seem like much, but it would be the difference between fitting my recycling containers in there with the seats up vs having to fold them down. And this is a 2018 MY car. The 2020's look to be even more compromised, to the point where the hatch isn't any more functional than the sedan, it's just a styling exercise.
My wife's Mazda CX-9 is amazingly low on cargo area for a vehicle as big as it is.....and the highly-sloped rear glass really kills cargo capacity for family vacation when you need to put people in the 3rd row.
My GTi, on the other hand, drove back from NYC with, inside of it, the hood for a V6 Montero SUV and six wheels and tires (or maybe four, I forget). And that was without using the passenger seat.
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