Hot hatch shopping

Hello, With the recent hail storms in North Texas I am looking for a new car. What I want/need is a 4 door hatchback/wagon that is fun and reliable, something I could start autocrossing on the weekends. As far as price I can either pay cash for something under $9k or finance something under $30k. My search has naturally brought up the usual suspects: Gti, Sti/Wrx, Mazdaspeed3, Mazda 3s, focus st, and civic si. After talking to my insurance rep the Sti is out, paying $1.2k for 6 months of insurance doesnt excite me, especially with a baby on the way within the week. I test drove the Gti and 2nd gen Ms3 this week and loved them both, there's something about turbos that excite me. I am still looking for a chance to go drive a focus st, civic si, and mazda 3s but so far the turbos have my attention.

I have been a car enthusiast for a while but have spent the last few years in Jeeps and hand me down cars like my current 02 impala. I love offroading but breaking things all the time got old. Autocrossing seems like a relatively cheap thrill to get into and gain experience in. I'd like to compete within a stock class and plan on getting a spare set of rims with some fast tires and maybe a swaybar and upgraded shocks to get started. I dont plan on competing nationally, yet.

So far I have found a 1st gen ms3 and mkv gti within my cash price range and a few 2nd gen ms3, a bunch of gti s models, and a few focus st's that I vould finance. Out of these models which should I consider more seriously? Anything I'm missing? Which would be more competitive in stock or stx classes? Reliability? I know vw has had their issues and have seen a few complaints about the focus st. Thanks again. Andrew

So far my thoughts on the ms3 and mkv gti that I have driven: 2011 Mazdaspeed3 was pretty nice felt much smoother after test driving a 2012 Sti. Several of my friends have Sti's and ive worked on all of them so I was naturally drawn to it plus I found on with 38k miles for $25k here in dfw wasn't a bad deal. My 9 month pregnant wife axed that idea after a test drive. Moving to the ms3 the ride was much smoother, power was similar but traction was not. A real hoot to drive and there are several at a decent price locally, all the fan boys want sti's and evo's in dfw. I like that it has a lsd even if it tq steers like crazy. I then went to ho test drive an 08 1st gen ms3 but another guy flew in to buy it when I got there. The dealer had an 07 Gti base 6mt. Took it for a spin since I was there and was impressed. It rode better than the ms3 a little but didnt feel soo massive inside and I could see much better out of it. The power was definitely less than the Mazda but the other creature comforts like a kick ass stereo and rear seat ac vents on the arm rest were nice (my wife likes them because it will prevent our baby from melting in the back seat). While it didnt feel as planted it was definitely tossable and almost anyone could drive that manual trans (my wife can barely drive stick). I also like that it is in gstock where as the ms3 I believe is in dstock with the wrx and sti. I would be a novice to autox and think both would be great cars for my baby carrying and dd responsibilities while allowing me some "man" time to go have fun. The gti seems like a good starting point and practical but the fun of the ms3 is hard to pass up. I am looking for a focus st to test this week.

How tall are you and your wife? With a baby on the way, fitting the seat in the back is going to be a concern. I am 5'8 or so, and an infant carrier won't fit behind me in my friend's Focus ST with Recaros. I have been able to fit the infant carrier in a Focus behind me when the car does not have the Recaros. I seem to recall the Mazda being ok on this point.

First, as far as the autox stuff goes, don't even let that be a consideration into what car you buy. If you've never autox'd before, anything you get will be faster than you are. Besides, IMHO, the car should fit your personal and family needs first, then any autox stuff you do with it is just gravy.

I shopped this market very recently too. The MS3 was always a bucket list car for me. I've test driven them many times and love 'em. The low end torque is awesome. But then I drove the FoST. In stock form it feels ever so slightly slower than the MS3, but is still a rocket. Steering is sharper than in the Mazda. Plus I found that dollar for dollar, I could get a better deal on the FoST for a slightly used one. The FoST would have more goo-gads than the MS3 too. I wound up with a loaded FoST. I had the Ford Racing ECU tune kit installed...$700 total including dealer installation. Worth every penny. This thing has ridiculous low end pull for a boost buggy. Torque steers like a mo fo, but comes with the territory I guess. I love the Recaros. My kids aren't in baby seats, so I've never tried to fit one back there but I'd be surprised if it didn't fit. It's not limo like in the back, but from having dealt with 3 kids in car seats, judging by the eyeball test the car looks like it has adequate room for one.

You won't go wrong with the MS3, but the FoST is definitely worth the look.

EDIT: I should ask, is this baby #1? If so, congrats first of all. Second, kiss life as you know it now goodbye. Third, while you definitely want to check to make sure a car seat will fit, don't feel like you need to go running for a minivan or SUV yet. With one kid, a hatchback/wagon will do fine. It's when you get into multiple kids that a minivan becomes the most useful tool you own.

If your wife doesn't have a larger car, you're going to have a hard time putting a baby seat in a compact hatch. Turbo, hatch, space for baby = Ecoboost flex? It's totally not what you're shopping for, it's not sporty, but a quick tune and you've got a JATO equipped couch.

Otherwise, maybe an outback with the 3.6? Or an Accord Sport?

Bring your baby-seat car shopping, install it, try to sit in front of it.

See if there is a KIA Forte5 SX with a stick in your area. You can get a fully loaded new one for @ 22K and I was impressed with the one I drove.

Thanks, this is baby #1. It's funny how these things pop up when you turn 30, its like the world says "ok thats enough of your 20 something shenanigans here's some responsibilities for ya."

I'm 6'1" the wife is 5'5" theres more room behind her seat plus she drives a suburban already. I'm a big guy so I hear the Recaros in the focus are probably out, the seats in the mazda fit nice.

Either one will definately be faster than my abilities at autox but which would be a better platform to learn on? From what I have read and felt test driving the Gti and Focus rotate pretty well, the ms3 needs a little more coaxing.

saab 9-3? with saab out of the picture as a manufacturer, their prices have hit rock bottom.. but you can still get parts to repair them

Most of what you listed is a lot bigger than my Saturn, which fits a car seat in the back just fine behind my wife, who is 5'8". I could sit in front of it too, just wouldn't want to do so for extended periods of time.

Klayfish wrote: Second, kiss life as you know it now goodbye.

Yup.

The GTI is probably the semi responsible adult car out the choices. It can hold multiple baby seats if it has to and will be a little more refined than the others. Get a newer mk5 or mk6.

I'd vote for the Focus, but I might be slightly biased.

Probably the best answer is whatever feels best to you. Drive as many of them as you can and see which one really floats your boat.

It is unwise to buy a new car when your wife is 9 months pregnant with your first child.

You have no idea how much your life is gonna change very soon.

I certainly would not take the financing option.

stoneydude wrote: Thanks, this is baby #1. It's funny how these things pop up when you turn 30, its like the world says "ok thats enough of your 20 something shenanigans here's some responsibilities for ya." I'm 6'1" the wife is 5'5" theres more room behind her seat plus she drives a suburban already. I'm a big guy so I hear the Recaros in the focus are probably out, the seats in the mazda fit nice. Either one will definately be faster than my abilities at autox but which would be a better platform to learn on? From what I have read and felt test driving the Gti and Focus rotate pretty well, the ms3 needs a little more coaxing.

Go sit in the FoST and see for yourself. I'm only 5'9" and 170lbs and the Recaros fit wonderfully. Go see if they fit you. My commute home from work is often 1hr 45m and I'm in no discomfort when I get home...and I have a bad back, hips and knees.

I haven't autox'd any of the cars, but the Focus is lightning quick to turn in and they say the balance is fantastic. As you said, it'll even rotate.

MPG from the FoST is 30-32 highway, mid-20s in town. I average 27-29mpg in a mix of highway cruise and gridlock traffic. It can run on regular unleaded in stock form, the MS3 needs premium. With my tune, I now need premium too, but considering I've got 360ft/lb tq, it's a price I'm willing to pay.

In reply to SVreX:

I understand my financial situation and would only finance something that fit our budget. I'm heavily leaning towards just paying cash and I have found nice examples of both the ms3 and gti for under $8k.

I just got back from meeting with the insurance adjuster and it looks like they are going to total out my Impala. I bought it for a steal as it was an 02 with only 30k miles a year ago, now has only 40k. I have found others for sale locally online going for $6-9k with 80k miles so we will see where they value mine at. I expect there will be some back and forth on the price, but State Farm has surprised me before.

After that appointment the wife and I drove to the dealership that had the 2nd gen Ms3 and they also had a MK6 gti with the DSG trans. We brought the car seat and stroller to test fit. Surprisingly the Gti handled it very well, I had plenty of room and so did she. When we put the seat in the Ms3 my legs were a bit cramped, and would make driving the 6spd awkward perhaps. I didn't fiddle too much with the seat. The wife liked the look of the Ms3 more than the Gti too.

Decisions decisions.

In reply to stoneydude:

I am sure you are quite capable with your finances.

I am also sure you have some life changes coming that you do not yet understand.

6 months from now your priorities are going to be radically different then they are now. There is no way you can begin to understand until you've lived through it.

If I could say anything to my 27 yo self about to become a Dad, it would be, "Don't make more life changes. Don't assume you understand what is coming, or how you are going to feel. Don't take on debt. Save a little cash. Drive a beater for now. "

My 27 year old self would NEVER have listened to me, and I doubt you will either. Hopefully I am wrong, and you are smarter than me.

Being in a similar position to you, I recently bought a lightly used Focus ST. So far, it's been great. In my opinion, the MS3 interior is not as nice, though they are a blast to drive. I really looked hard at a GTI as well but just couldn't convince myself that the reliability would be good enough.

Let us know what you end up with.

stoneydude wrote: I just got back from meeting with the insurance adjuster and it looks like they are going to total out my Impala. I bought it for a steal as it was an 02 with only 30k miles a year ago, now has only 40k. I have found others for sale locally online going for $6-9k with 80k miles so we will see where they value mine at. I expect there will be some back and forth on the price, but State Farm has surprised me before. After that appointment the wife and I drove to the dealership that had the 2nd gen Ms3 and they also had a MK6 gti with the DSG trans. We brought the car seat and stroller to test fit. Surprisingly the Gti handled it very well, I had plenty of room and so did she. When we put the seat in the Ms3 my legs were a bit cramped, and would make driving the 6spd awkward perhaps. I didn't fiddle too much with the seat. The wife liked the look of the Ms3 more than the Gti too. Decisions decisions.

just remember, the baby seat does -not- have to go behind the driver.. and they are only in the rearward facing seats for a short time.

Not to hijack but on the Ford Racing tune how is the upper end power? I'm thinking of doing mine but read somewhere it fell flat over 5000 rpm. Does it?

Klayfish wrote: First, as far as the autox stuff goes, don't even let that be a consideration into what car you buy. If you've never autox'd before, anything you get will be faster than you are. Besides, IMHO, the car should fit your personal and family needs first, then any autox stuff you do with it is just gravy. I shopped this market very recently too. The MS3 was always a bucket list car for me. I've test driven them many times and love 'em. The low end torque is awesome. But then I drove the FoST. In stock form it feels ever so slightly slower than the MS3, but is still a rocket. Steering is sharper than in the Mazda. Plus I found that dollar for dollar, I could get a better deal on the FoST for a slightly used one. The FoST would have more goo-gads than the MS3 too. I wound up with a loaded FoST. I had the Ford Racing ECU tune kit installed...$700 total including dealer installation. Worth every penny. This thing has ridiculous low end pull for a boost buggy. Torque steers like a mo fo, but comes with the territory I guess. I love the Recaros. My kids aren't in baby seats, so I've never tried to fit one back there but I'd be surprised if it didn't fit. It's not limo like in the back, but from having dealt with 3 kids in car seats, judging by the eyeball test the car looks like it has adequate room for one. You won't go wrong with the MS3, but the FoST is definitely worth the look. EDIT: I should ask, is this baby #1? If so, congrats first of all. Second, kiss life as you know it now goodbye. Third, while you definitely want to check to make sure a car seat will fit, don't feel like you need to go running for a minivan or SUV yet. With one kid, a hatchback/wagon will do fine. It's when you get into multiple kids that a minivan becomes the most useful tool you own.

In reply to mad_machine:

We placed the seat in the middle, but of course could put it behind the passenger where the 5'5" wife sits.

In reply to SVreX MegaDork: After getting the call from the insurance company over what they will give me has me reconsidering my options. Financing is out now. If I can find something newer and still fun and sporty in good condition I will consider it. The hunt is on. Or I just buy back the impala for now and put the money into a savings account.

In reply to stoneydude:

Does that mean they were generous with you, or they are making you walk?

I hope they did well by you.

Wow your situation is like me 3 years ago to a T...

I had an 03 TJ that I built on D60/D70 with detroits front and rear, 5.86s, stretched to 110in wheelbase, 40in LTBS on beadlocks, on 4in of lift. Much cutting was done to keep it low.

Wife and I had a baby, I got into autocross since it wasn't as involved(breaking things, weekend trip needed for good wheeling) and sold the Jeep shortly after.

I got a Mazda3 and ran it mostly stock just for fun for a while.

I wanted to tinker and fab things again so ended up trading for a 2 to build for STF.

My son is now 3 going on 4, finally at a point I could do an actual "build" last season.

The 2 is easier to get my son in and out of than my 3(sedan) was... Mainly due to door shape. 3 hatch this probably isn't a problem on.

I understand if you need more space, but the 2 is a LOAD of fun in STF trim, still some fun in HS trim with a rear bar though. I drove it like that for a while. And obviously I made it work with my son.

My build is here, some background on the Mazda3 and Jeep stuff included at the beginning.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/2011-mazda2-not-so-srs-bzns-stf-build/100748/page1/

Its not a hatch wagon but accessibility to the rear seats is great with the redline ions. Even though its marketed as a coupe it has half doors in addition to the normal coupe style doors.

I am just under 6 ft and the wife is 5.5. 2 rear facing seats do fit behind the recaros and us(with not much to spare behind me). I always struggled to install and remove the kids and seats in the pt cruiser and the 95 camry wagon, especially in tight parking spaces when the doors cant be fully opened.

The trunk swallows up a folded wheels attached jogging stroller (with bicycle style wheels) and still leaves some room if you pull the carpet and donut. More room than the cruiser by far too.

If you can find a competition version all the better, but stock redlines make pretty good all-rounders with plenty of compatibility with the ss cobalts. Exterior plastic panels are forgiving and lots of cheapish parts bin gm parts throughout.

Might be worth checking one out. There are some good deals on them because of limited production and they were overshadowed by the srt4s and svts in their day.

A cheaper starting platform leaves more money for baby, autox fees or upgrades if you get to that point.

In reply to SVreX: They gave me a solid $6k offer. Of course I will do my due diligence and try to bump that up with the $7k+ ads I see on autotrader.com for twice the miles. Either way I doubled my money on this car.

The wife suggested looking out for good cash cars I could try to flip and eventually trade up to what I want.

A few other cash cars did pop up, Saab 9-3 turbo4. Any thoughts mad-machine?

geoffl wrote: Not to hijack but on the Ford Racing tune how is the upper end power? I'm thinking of doing mine but read somewhere it fell flat over 5000 rpm. Does it?

Klayfish wrote: First, as far as the autox stuff goes, don't even let that be a consideration into what car you buy. If you've never autox'd before, anything you get will be faster than you are. Besides, IMHO, the car should fit your personal and family needs first, then any autox stuff you do with it is just gravy. I shopped this market very recently too. The MS3 was always a bucket list car for me. I've test driven them many times and love 'em. The low end torque is awesome. But then I drove the FoST. In stock form it feels ever so slightly slower than the MS3, but is still a rocket. Steering is sharper than in the Mazda. Plus I found that dollar for dollar, I could get a better deal on the FoST for a slightly used one. The FoST would have more goo-gads than the MS3 too. I wound up with a loaded FoST. I had the Ford Racing ECU tune kit installed...$700 total including dealer installation. Worth every penny. This thing has ridiculous low end pull for a boost buggy. Torque steers like a mo fo, but comes with the territory I guess. I love the Recaros. My kids aren't in baby seats, so I've never tried to fit one back there but I'd be surprised if it didn't fit. It's not limo like in the back, but from having dealt with 3 kids in car seats, judging by the eyeball test the car looks like it has adequate room for one. You won't go wrong with the MS3, but the FoST is definitely worth the look. EDIT: I should ask, is this baby #1? If so, congrats first of all. Second, kiss life as you know it now goodbye. Third, while you definitely want to check to make sure a car seat will fit, don't feel like you need to go running for a minivan or SUV yet. With one kid, a hatchback/wagon will do fine. It's when you get into multiple kids that a minivan becomes the most useful tool you own.

Yes, yes it does. The power curve is truly like a table. It goes straight up from idle. The engine makes gobs of torque from 1800-4500rpm. But anything above that is just wasting gas. By 5200rpm or so, it's purely noise with almost no acceleration. You get used to it and learn when to shift. What I like about it is that since the peak of power is in the range I mention, 99% of the time you're driving in normal conditions, you're right in the sweet spot. Makes it easy to squeeze into a hole in rush hour traffic.