How cheap could a new car be built?

Driven5 said:

Cheaper only sells better to a point. It has been proven time and time again. There is no country in which the best selling car is the outright cheapest one.

You're grossly overestimating the appeal and accessibility of even the most cheaply build cars, due to dramatically incorrect assumptions about your target market... Nevermind your grossly overestimated assumptions about manufacturing capabilities, especially underestimating non-recurring production cost needs, and completely ignoring the other (overhead, warranty, etc) costs of doing business.

You can buy a new car in India today for $4,400... It is not the best selling car there though. The best selling car there costs $6,750. The Tata Nano would be ~$3,500 today, and was a massive failure from both a sales and financial perspective.

So to answer your question:

How cheap can one be built and not-profitable? ~$3,500.

How cheap could one be and profitable? ~$4,400.

How cheap could one be and a 'best seller'? ~$6750.

That's good logic.   
   Only two real questions though.  When designing it did they consider recycled plastic?   And does it have an ICE  engine with all the required parts such as radiators, transmission, etc.  or are they using an EV?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Batteries are expensive too

Driven5 said:

Cheaper only sells better to a point. It has been proven time and time again. There is no country in which the best selling car is the outright cheapest one.

You're dramatically overestimating the appeal and accessibility of even the most cheaply build cars, due to grossly incorrect assumptions about your target market(s)... Nevermind your wildly overestimated assumptions about manufacturing capabilities, substantially underestimated non-recurring production cost needs, and completely ignored all of the other (overhead, distribution, warranty, etc) costs of doing business.

You can buy a new car in India today for $4,400... It is not the best selling car there though. The best selling car there costs $6,750. The Tata Nano would be ~$3,500 today, and was a massive failure from both a sales and financial perspective.

So to answer your question:

How cheap can one be built and not-profitable? ~$3,500.

How cheap could one be and profitable? ~$4,400.

How cheap could one be and a 'best seller'? ~$6750.

Not in the US. 

In reply to SV reX :

 While I agree, I'm not convinced  lead and lithium are the final choices.  
      Besides from what I understand about the Indian electric grid  they really don't have the flexibility most countries do in that regard. Isn't  a significant portion of their population devoid of electricity?   
If there is ever one country that needs a whole bunch of solar panels it's India. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I said that earlier. You can't sell electric cars in a place that doesn't have a reliable electric grid. 
 

And you can't sell $7000 cars in the US. 

I had a long reply that highlighted the points above as to how a cheap car wouldn't be successful, but realized that's not the question.

I would guess, if you kept it to a low safety regulations market, were able to buy all the materials for a million cars with one payment (i.e. bulk discount) and don't calculate in the up front cost of the robots, buildings, equipment, etc, I'd guess you could make a car as cheap as $1k.  You mentioned range, but not speed, so if you kept it under 40mph, a decent off the shelf 150 or 250cc motorcycle or moped motor would be cheaper than an electric motor and batteries with a 100 mile range.  Basically, a gas powered golf cart with windows.

Again, assuming you're to the point that you're just making the vehicles and the upfront costs have already been paid for. 

-Rob

I'm laughing at this whole thread. 

Let me hit you with some knowledge:

Apparently it is possible to produce a new car for $3500, and sell it for some sort of profit, yet everyone bellyaches about how you can't buld a challenge car for $2000.

Ps, college students ain't poor. They have more than $3500 in their pocket and backpack at all times (iphone and laptop).

2023 Nissan Versa - $15,730

A 20 year old civic is a 2003 civic. That's a pretty damn good college car. Anyone can work on a civic, even a college kid. 

I wonder how that compares to driving a 40 year old jaguar to college ha. 

Aite I'm out!

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I said that earlier. You can't sell electric cars in a place that doesn't have a reliable electric grid. 
 

And you can't sell $7000 cars in the US. 

True but why not?   VW was a cheap car when ntroduced  and people fell in love with it.   I get why it sold in Germany.
  But 10 years after our vets came back from Germany they were selling well here.  As far as cars go they were under powered, had a poor HVAC system.  Really basic. No features like A/C  automatic, power steering,  etc. 

  They were cheap. No style or class, dull color choices.   
  Yet sales grew and grew until Even GM was imitating them. Basically starting the whole compact car thing.  

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm laughing at this whole thread. 

Let me hit you with some knowledge:

Apparently it is possible to produce a new car for $3500, and sell it for some sort of profit, yet everyone bellyaches about how you can't buld a challenge car for $2000.

Ps, college students ain't poor. They have more than $3500 in their pocket and backpack at all times (iphone and laptop).

Chances are that cell phone and laptop are paid for with their student loans.  
  Regarding a challenge car budget?  That's easy.  The problem is it isn't a $2000 car. Anymore than it's a local competition. 
  It's a car that confirms to a set of rules  that implies a $2000 budget if you ignore the exceptions and clauses. 
       Plus located 3000 miles round trip away? There is real cost to that!   Suddenly we are really talking about$5-6000 plus a whole lot of time  for one event?  
 I'm going to do it when I retire because now the rules let me build my version of a $2000 car  by my rules then bring it home, finish it and use it as I prefer.   
    For that I thank this magazine. 

yupididit said:

A 20 year old civic is a 2003 civic. That's a pretty damn good college car. Anyone can work on a civic, even a college kid. 

I wonder how that compares to driving a 40 year old jaguar to college 

Aite I'm out!

Good point.  Except it's my way of giving a well deserving girl something she'll probably sell for enough to help her through college. 
I'm not silly enough to imagine  she'll keep it.  
      I suppose I could have just handed her $500  but hopefully she'll get close to 10 times that much. 

frenchyd said:

yupididit said:

A 20 year old civic is a 2003 civic. That's a pretty damn good college car. Anyone can work on a civic, even a college kid. 

I wonder how that compares to driving a 40 year old jaguar to college 

Aite I'm out!

Good point.  Except it's my way of giving a well deserving girl something she'll probably sell for enough to help her through college. 
I'm not silly enough to imagine  she'll keep it.    I suppose I could have just handed her $500  but hopefully she'll get close to 10 times that much. 

I think your math needs some work.  

Comparing a $6000 2003 Civic to a $6000 2023 FMC Utopia.  New cars loose value fast, so the cheap car will be worth way less than $6000 after a year, whereas a 2003 Civic will be still close to $6000 in 2024.  Old cars keep their value far better than new cars, and the older, the more stable.

I went back to college at the age of 48 living in the dorm. At the beginning of the fall semester, everyone had a nice looking car, way nicer than the one I owned, but by the end of the spring semester, they where all smashed and beat up.

I thought we discussed this not too long ago. I suggested the Solo. $15,500.

https://www.emvauto.com/solo

Brought to you by the same people who make the Speedster.

alfadriver said:

frenchyd said:

yupididit said:

A 20 year old civic is a 2003 civic. That's a pretty damn good college car. Anyone can work on a civic, even a college kid. 

I wonder how that compares to driving a 40 year old jaguar to college 

Aite I'm out!

Good point.  Except it's my way of giving a well deserving girl something she'll probably sell for enough to help her through college. 
I'm not silly enough to imagine  she'll keep it.    I suppose I could have just handed her $500  but hopefully she'll get close to 10 times that much. 

I think your math needs some work.  

Comparing a $6000 2003 Civic to a $6000 2023 FMC Utopia.  New cars loose value fast, so the cheap car will be worth way less than $6000 after a year, whereas a 2003 Civic will be still close to $6000 in 2024.  Old cars keep their value far better than new cars, and the older, the more stable.

Hopefully the purpose of a new car is reliable transportation through college and the first jobs period 

I bought my oldest daughter a new car ( Saturn) and she learned how to drive a stick shift on it. That same clutch was in it 20 years  320,000 miles later when she traded it on a new Honda Civic. 

z31maniac said:

2023 Nissan Versa - $15,730

With shipping it's $17,xxx plus taxes. 

Would you hate a manual trans Versa?

In reply to frenchyd :

Not sure what you think, but used cars are much better values than new cars.  There are plenty of 5-10 year old cars that are capable of meeting your "requirements".   And will last longer than a cheap new car that had corners cut to keep the cost really, really low.

Then again, I was able to retire on people buying new cars every year, so I'm still ok with that.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

I thought we discussed this not too long ago. I suggested the Solo. $15,500.

https://www.emvauto.com/solo

 

Brought to you by the same people who make the Speedster.

But where does your girlfriend sit?

You folks build that cheap car, just make sure the driver's seat has seat warmers.   

rob_lewis said:

I had a long reply that highlighted the points above as to how a cheap car wouldn't be successful, but realized that's not the question.

I would guess, if you kept it to a low safety regulations market, were able to buy all the materials for a million cars with one payment (i.e. bulk discount) and don't calculate in the up front cost of the robots, buildings, equipment, etc, I'd guess you could make a car as cheap as $1k.  You mentioned range, but not speed, so if you kept it under 40mph, a decent off the shelf 150 or 250cc motorcycle or moped motor would be cheaper than an electric motor and batteries with a 100 mile range.  Basically, a gas powered golf cart with windows.

Again, assuming you're to the point that you're just making the vehicles and the upfront costs have already been paid for. 

-Rob

 

 

Rob I wasn't thinking a third world car.  Although that should be part of its market if it's well built. 
  Several people here are hearing the word cheap and thinking poorly made unreliable.  
  Can I remind you of VW? Post WW2?   
    They were cheap and efficient and sold extremely well.  Started the compact car movement ( which led to the muscle cars etc)••••• 

  My point is a body and chassis made of recycled plastic has real advantages. ( not just cost)  spending  hundreds of millions periodically to create a New  version of the same car doesn't really help society.     
     We don't need to stop selling pickups or SUV's whatever but Elon Musk was right about the Tesla selling to a new market. Maybe the time is right to create  a new cheap sedan?  People need transportation. Cut the costs out and maybe America could lead the world again. 

VolvoHeretic said:

You have to make it as a trike, thus it's just a motorcycle with few regulations. Two front driven wheels and single rear for great stability with side by side seating. Like this.

I really like your way of thinking.  

bentwrench said:

Don't forget government approval.

Good luck jumping through the bureaucratic hoops there.

I meant to respond earlier. Sorry I got distracted. 
  Regulations honestly are the auto industry's  way of keeping competition. From  their industry. 
   Someone has already said. Make it a 3 wheeler.  Now it's a motorcycle. Lot less problems.   Absolutely brilliant.  

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If she will not sit on your lap like mine will, they make a two-seater.

Keith Tanner said:

Schmidlap said:

The Nissan Micra costs less than $20,000 in Canada, it sells very poorly.

It was actually under $10k Cdn just a few years ago. I don't have any insight into sales numbers. And I think for the sake of Frenchy's discussion, we should stick to "cars that can be sold and operated on any road in any state in the US". No cheating with UTVs and weird registration rules.

EVs can be built quite inexpensively as they're fundamentally simpler, but the battery cost is still a big part of it. The range is a big determining factor in total parts cost.

Well said.     Germany is making flexible solar panels on a old printing press.  ( gotta be a lot of those around no longer in use)  so instead of solar panels use it for the roof.  
  While it won't generate a lot of miles , it will be helping for the return commuting trip.     
       Here's my thinking.   Let's say we have 100 mile range. That should cover almost everyone's commuting distance.  Bosses are looking for low cost ways to keep employees?  Let them plug into the light socket at the base of the lights in the parking lot. OK a 110 outlet will only add 4 miles per hour to the battery. 8 hours 32 more miles. Plus let's say 10 from the roof panel?  Now you can drive. Up to 50 miles to work and after work  drive 92 more miles before the battery is flat.  
    OK  vacation? Fly wherever and rent when you get there.  Gotta haul some stuff home from the body box store? Rent their truck. While I haven't solved all you car needs there are rental places all over the country for that rare occasion.