It comes down to the unpredictable nature of most automatics. If a normal auto could be asked to hold a gear reliably I don't think I would care near as annoying on a track. The fact remains on the track unintended shifting up or down can cause dangerous things to happen when at limits of cornering adhesion
Patrick said:I’ve never once driven a crisp shifting automatic...
This is a limitation in my experience with automatic transmissions. I have only owned and driven a few vehicles with automatics and most have been pretty basic appliances or trucks. I have only driven a "sporty" automatic once and it was stuck in "asshat" mode where it would not upshift until you got very close to redline. So cruising around had the thing being obnoxious at 5k rpm's. Biggest things that bother me when driving a vehicle with an automatic transmission is that there is no engine braking and I occasionally hit that super extra wide brake pedal when I forget and try to push in the clutch pedal...
I have tasted very good automatics and I want more of that. When I drive a bad automatic it makes me very angry. Also, electric motors are superior to automatics in stop and go.
secretariata said:Patrick said:I’ve never once driven a crisp shifting automatic...
This is a limitation in my experience with automatic transmissions. I have only owned and driven a few vehicles with automatics and most have been pretty basic appliances or trucks. I have only driven a "sporty" automatic once and it was stuck in "asshat" mode where it would not upshift until you got very close to redline. So cruising around had the thing being obnoxious at 5k rpm's. Biggest things that bother me when driving a vehicle with an automatic transmission is that there is no engine braking and I occasionally hit that super extra wide brake pedal when I forget and try to push in the clutch pedal...
The new 8 speed getrag box is pretty awesome at knowing exactly where to be and keeping the engine perfectly in the powerband. The older 4 speed gm transmissions are transformed completely with a little change to the programming. It’s night and day difference from the lazy pickup truck shifts
In reply to Patrick :
I fully believe that "good" automatic transmissions do exist, just that my personal experience just has not included exposure to such. As more and more vehicles are no longer available with manual transmissions, I assume at some point I will get to experience one either by choice or accident... 
Agree with everyone else's assertion that it depends on the intended use of the vehicle. For any type of fun driving, a third pedal makes all the difference.
The thing that really irks me about automatics is not being able to keep engine revs low and be at full throttle. I like to roll the throttle open without having the tach wound up to 6k. This was primarily when towing with a underpowered (for the load) vehicle, though not the only time I've been annoyed by this.
How much do you loose by driving an automatic?
Only your soul.
Too many variables. Used to be that manuals always had more gears than autos, and thus accelerated MUCH better in addition to giving you a lot more control. They were faster, more efficient, and more engaging. Now that autos have enough ratios that 1st gear doesn't suck even with a small engine, i think it's mostly a matter of preference.
One thing hasn't changed, though. Manuals RARELY break, and when they do it's usually your fault. Autos break sometimes and are almost universally very expensive to have repaired or replaced.
I think there's a lot of Fiesta ST owners with warranty replacement trannies that might beg to differ.
But I agree, with a few exceptions, manual boxes are typically the most robust option.
In reply to TGMF :The thing that really irks me about automatics is not being able to keep engine revs low and be at full throttle. I like to roll the throttle open without having the tach wound up to 6k. This was primarily when towing with a underpowered (for the load) vehicle, though not the only time I've been annoyed by this.
That is only a short tune away from HPTuner on the GM automatics. That's why I asked specifically about the GM 6 & 8 speeds.
I love a manual transmission, to me they're always more "fun" because of the level of driver involvement. But that's not to say modern automatics aren't any good. The 7 speed auto in my G37 can rip off shifts far faster than I could ever dream of, and does a nice job predicting what gear to be in.
C63 AMG: “Why would I ever drive a manual again!?”
CTS-V: “Goddamit, I shoulda held out for a manual.” ...unless side-by-side with another V driver who’s rowing.
If I had to give a rule of thumb, I'd say the lower the weight/hp the worse it is to be an automatic, the higher the weight/hp the better it is to be an automatic.
Meaning having an auto in smaller, lighter cars robs them of more fun than bigger, heavier cars.
Even with only 4 gears, I'd say the auto in my ZJ is pretty good. With a shift kit and some computer tuning, it's not too eager to downshift unless you're really leaning on the throttle. So it'll let you work the engine without revving to the moon. And it shifts pretty nicely too. And even better, to avoid mid-corner downshifts when you get on the power, it's perfectly happy with being downshifted to 3rd or 2nd with a throttle blip to rev-match. If done right, it's as smooth as a good rev-match with a manual.
CobraSpdRH said:If I had to give a rule of thumb, I'd say the lower the weight/hp the worse it is to be an automatic, the higher the weight/hp the better it is to be an automatic.
Meaning having an auto in smaller, lighter cars robs them of more fun than bigger, heavier cars.
A Jaguar with an automatic is boring!! A Jaguar with a manual is fun. PS Jaguars tend to be heavy. An XJS V12 is 4200 pounds.
Patrick said:secretariata said:Patrick said:I’ve never once driven a crisp shifting automatic...
This is a limitation in my experience with automatic transmissions. I have only owned and driven a few vehicles with automatics and most have been pretty basic appliances or trucks. I have only driven a "sporty" automatic once and it was stuck in "asshat" mode where it would not upshift until you got very close to redline. So cruising around had the thing being obnoxious at 5k rpm's. Biggest things that bother me when driving a vehicle with an automatic transmission is that there is no engine braking and I occasionally hit that super extra wide brake pedal when I forget and try to push in the clutch pedal...
The new 8 speed getrag box is pretty awesome at knowing exactly where to be and keeping the engine perfectly in the powerband. The older 4 speed gm transmissions are transformed completely with a little change to the programming. It’s night and day difference from the lazy pickup truck shifts
The bolded is important. Car enthusiasts think nothing of modding the suspension to work better, modding the engine for more performance, etc, but think that an automatic is a magic box that can't be touched. Most domestic transmissions have had shift improver and valve body kits available for decades and it's EASY to reprogram the transmission for better, more predictable shifting, to hold gears until told to shift, to shift instantly when you move the lever, etc. And usually those modifications were CHEAP. A TH400 or 700R4 or C6 or AOD or Mopar trans could be seriously transformed for under $100. And many imported transmissions could benefit from similar reprogramming.
I built the AOD in my V8 RX7 to shift instantly, only when I wanted it to, up or downshifting and holding it in gear as long as the lever was in that gear position. And it was done for about $45 in parts. Gave me an automatic for driving the car on the street, and a semi automatic when I wanted to autocross it. it had no problem with engine braking.
And yes, there are a lot of good automatics out there that match the nature of the car, The steptronic in my E38 is one of them. Even the steptonic in my 330ci ZHP is perfectly matched to the car and engine. And it does engine braking like a champ.
Your man card, according to this forum.
Automatics in trucks/SUV's make a lot of sense, particularly if you're towing. Sports cars, hot hatches and the like, I want a manual transmission. I don't care that a DSG is faster at the track, McLaren isn't calling me anytime soon. I enjoy the feeling of control and involvement I get from a manual transmission.
The e-throttle and transmission computers can lead to some really crappy behavior tho, my wife's old B6 Audi A4 Avant had horrible throttle lag taking off from a stop. Like, floor the gas and wait two seconds before anything happens! The Cayenne diesel has it a bit as well. Really frustrating...
What he said ^.
Chris_V said:Patrick said:secretariata said:Patrick said:I’ve never once driven a crisp shifting automatic...
This is a limitation in my experience with automatic transmissions. I have only owned and driven a few vehicles with automatics and most have been pretty basic appliances or trucks. I have only driven a "sporty" automatic once and it was stuck in "asshat" mode where it would not upshift until you got very close to redline. So cruising around had the thing being obnoxious at 5k rpm's. Biggest things that bother me when driving a vehicle with an automatic transmission is that there is no engine braking and I occasionally hit that super extra wide brake pedal when I forget and try to push in the clutch pedal...
The new 8 speed getrag box is pretty awesome at knowing exactly where to be and keeping the engine perfectly in the powerband. The older 4 speed gm transmissions are transformed completely with a little change to the programming. It’s night and day difference from the lazy pickup truck shifts
The bolded is important. Car enthusiasts think nothing of modding the suspension to work better, modding the engine for more performance, etc, but think that an automatic is a magic box that can't be touched. Most domestic transmissions have had shift improver and valve body kits available for decades and it's EASY to reprogram the transmission for better, more predictable shifting, to hold gears until told to shift, to shift instantly when you move the lever, etc. And usually those modifications were CHEAP. A TH400 or 700R4 or C6 or AOD or Mopar trans could be seriously transformed for under $100. And many imported transmissions could benefit from similar reprogramming.
I built the AOD in my V8 RX7 to shift instantly, only when I wanted it to, up or downshifting and holding it in gear as long as the lever was in that gear position. And it was done for about $45 in parts. Gave me an automatic for driving the car on the street, and a semi automatic when I wanted to autocross it. it had no problem with engine braking.
And yes, there are a lot of good automatics out there that match the nature of the car, The steptronic in my E38 is one of them. Even the steptonic in my 330ci ZHP is perfectly matched to the car and engine. And it does engine braking like a champ.
How does "removing the transmission and changing the valve body" equate to "reprogramming?"
In reply to z31maniac :
Depending on the control methods the transmission uses, "reprogramming" certain behaviors may require hydraulic changes in the valvebody. Which usually doesn't require pulling the whole trans to do.
Sonax makes a ton of valve body replacements to make things more stiff
z31maniac said:Chris_V said:Patrick said:secretariata said:Patrick said:I’ve never once driven a crisp shifting automatic...
This is a limitation in my experience with automatic transmissions. I have only owned and driven a few vehicles with automatics and most have been pretty basic appliances or trucks. I have only driven a "sporty" automatic once and it was stuck in "asshat" mode where it would not upshift until you got very close to redline. So cruising around had the thing being obnoxious at 5k rpm's. Biggest things that bother me when driving a vehicle with an automatic transmission is that there is no engine braking and I occasionally hit that super extra wide brake pedal when I forget and try to push in the clutch pedal...
The new 8 speed getrag box is pretty awesome at knowing exactly where to be and keeping the engine perfectly in the powerband. The older 4 speed gm transmissions are transformed completely with a little change to the programming. It’s night and day difference from the lazy pickup truck shifts
The bolded is important. Car enthusiasts think nothing of modding the suspension to work better, modding the engine for more performance, etc, but think that an automatic is a magic box that can't be touched. Most domestic transmissions have had shift improver and valve body kits available for decades and it's EASY to reprogram the transmission for better, more predictable shifting, to hold gears until told to shift, to shift instantly when you move the lever, etc. And usually those modifications were CHEAP. A TH400 or 700R4 or C6 or AOD or Mopar trans could be seriously transformed for under $100. And many imported transmissions could benefit from similar reprogramming.
I built the AOD in my V8 RX7 to shift instantly, only when I wanted it to, up or downshifting and holding it in gear as long as the lever was in that gear position. And it was done for about $45 in parts. Gave me an automatic for driving the car on the street, and a semi automatic when I wanted to autocross it. it had no problem with engine braking.
And yes, there are a lot of good automatics out there that match the nature of the car, The steptronic in my E38 is one of them. Even the steptonic in my 330ci ZHP is perfectly matched to the car and engine. And it does engine braking like a champ.
How does "removing the transmission and changing the valve body" equate to "reprogramming?"
All you usually have to do is pull the pan and filter and then the valve body is right there. Why is it that people will rebuild an entire engine to make more power, but balk at doing a valve body mod? Hmm? That's my point: enthusiasts will pull an engine and rebuild it with stronger parts, disassemble a front or rear suspension to install better parts, etc, but won't touch an automatic trans saying that it's too hard or too scary or that it simply only works in stock form.
By offending a large part of the automotive enthusiast population by sticking an AOD in the Molvo, I hope to find out what I gain, not loose.
By gain, I mean will I actually drive the car more? In my part of the world, I don't get to do too much spirited driving where shifting my own gears would provide any tangible benefits. I do however, spend enough time in stop and go traffic that I find myself walking past the car with the third pedal just because I know whats coming up.
Pete
In reply to z31maniac : How does "removing the transmission and changing the valve body" equate to "reprogramming?"
The programming is changed by the "hardwired" program built into the different valvebody.
The newer computerized trans take more to change, but you can change a lot more of the parameters.
I had a manual valve body on my AAR Cuda and loved it
You'll need to log in to post.
