Real patina is cool, fake patina is not.
Real patina is cool, fake patina is not.
Some of that isn’t exactly new news, as performance cars have been piping in a hotter exhaust note for a while. (And let’s just ’fess up that, should the option present itself, we’d all press the button to engage it.)
Nope. My Focus RS pipes fake engine noise through the stereo, and I absolutely did not press the button to engage it. Because there is no button to engage or disengage it, and Ford doesn't even acknowledge it exists. But the module that generates the fake noise is trivially disconnected from the stereo, and I disconnected it shortly after buying the car. The dumbest thing about the noise is that it's exactly the noise you'd get from a flat 4 with unequal headers. Definitely not even a believable noise from an inline 4.
It does other fake things--like it dumps some extra fuel in the exhaust stroke to make the exhaust go POP POP POP between shifts. It sounds to me like poor tuning, and it's so very fake.
My distaste for the fake goes farther. A Miata with dual exhaust tips? Nope. (An inline 4 motorcycle with 4-4 exhaust? Hell yeah.)
The fake brake vents on my Subaru WRX? Nope.
I'm just a form-should-follow function kinda guy, and fake form really bothers me.
Appleseed said:I'm a scale modeler/model railroader. Fake is my game.
Modeling is not the same as faking. A sculptor is not making a fake woman.
Will said:
Real patina is cool, fake patina is not.
Everything about this. A recent trend seems to be "relic" guitars where they take a perfectly good new instrument and make it look like a crack-addicted raccoon has been touring with it for 30 years. It drives me insane.
It's the new autotune.
A little did a lot and that was fun, but now we're seeing a lot and it's getting mocked/parodied, and soon we'll go back to a little again before moving on to something else.
I prefer the flaws, but as long as it isn't overdone then a little is nice to have every now and then (just like beer, plastic surgery, and traction control).
Fakeness in the context of cars is generally unacceptable to me. Fake scoops. Fake sounds. Unacceptable. That said, I've been a transportation designer all my career and there are visual "tricks" that we use regularly to make a car look longer, lower, slimmer etc. I don't consider this fake. It's part of the artistry of designing a car.
Fakeness elsewhere is a whole other can of worms. I think the key point is that as long as people aren't trying to pass off a photo or video of something that's been substantially altered as "real" then I'm fine with it. I photograph models and often do enough post-processing work that I no longer call them photographs. They are photo illustrations or something like that. They move into a different realm of art.
Someone else commented on autotune and other "improvements" made voices in music. I think if you can't replicate your recorded performance live, you're completely misrepresenting who and what you are. What I don't have a problem with is voices that are significantly and obviously distorted in some way. It's part of the band or singers character. It's not using technology to hide a bad performance or voice.
Here's a timely discovery - an industry article about an automotive noise and vibration generator that both Dodge and Ford are using. Scroll down to the third article about "Revving up an EV muscle car".
msterbeau said:Fakeness in the context of cars is generally unacceptable to me. Fake scoops. Fake sounds. Unacceptable. That said, I've been a transportation designer all my career and there are visual "tricks" that we use regularly to make a car look longer, lower, slimmer etc. I don't consider this fake. It's part of the artistry of designing a car.
Fakeness elsewhere is a whole other can of worms. I think the key point is that as long as people aren't trying to pass off a photo or video of something that's been substantially altered as "real" then I'm fine with it. I photograph models and often do enough post-processing work that I no longer call them photographs. They are photo illustrations or something like that. They move into a different realm of art.
Someone else commented on autotune and other "improvements" made voices in music. I think if you can't replicate your recorded performance live, you're completely misrepresenting who and what you are. What I don't have a problem with is voices that are significantly and obviously distorted in some way. It's part of the band or singers character. It's not using technology to hide a bad performance or voice.
This reads as a fundamental misunderstanding of autotune and how powerful it is.
An artist that uses autotune on their studio tracks can 100% use it in a live performance.
And it doesn't make sense to say that they need to sound the same in an acoustic or acapella performance, cause those are completely different sounds than a normal performance anyways.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Autotune is an offense against all music. Any artist who uses it is immediately banned from my playlist.
Pretty much all cars are fake, ICE and EV included, and have always been fake. How can you advertise "300hp" and not have a single actual horse onboard?
Toyman! said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
Autotune is an offense against all music. Any artist who uses it is immediately banned from my playlist.
I would wager that this is, again, another fundamental misunderstanding of autotune.
if you truly mean that, you better stop listening to pretty much every single studio produced album out there. I'd even go as far as saying if you didn't personally record it and control the mic inputs and outputs, you don't know it wasnt autotuned
People point to T-Pain and others when they discuss autotune, but so many others use it as it was intended, for pitch correction. Tim McGraw uses it live, as does Shania Twain. Virtually every studio album gets tweaked by it, and every singer that talks E36 M3 about it admits that they use it in studio.
"Live means live" was a campaign started roughly 10 years ago to fight against autotune and backing tracks. Now the official twitter for that didn't last more than a year and I cant find anything supporting it that isnt from roughly 10 years ago.
Autotune is the equivalent of photoshop. It is everywhere.
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:tricking you into thinking you are listening to Led Zepplin. But they are not in your car.
That's funny, Jimmy Page and I were just discussung that on my way to work!
The turbo forte had a seperate speaker under the cowl to emit engine-like sounds into the cabin. It was unplugged fairly quickly.
Regarding EV fake ICE noise - I am conflicted. On one hand "its dumb". On the other hand, some audible feedback is nice just from a UX standpoint - is it acceptable to give drivers any audio feedback with respect to engine speed/load?
If the powertrain is incredibly quiet, it may not generate its own. Adding an output for it seems logical.
maschinenbau said:Pretty much all cars are fake, ICE and EV included, and have always been fake. How can you advertise "300hp" and not have a single actual horse onboard?
Wellllll, if you silly 'Muricuns would adopt the metric system we'd be using kilowatts to describe our Dodge Chargers....
Edit: ....and an electric car's output is advertised in HP.......seems kinda silly.
Berck said:Some of that isn’t exactly new news, as performance cars have been piping in a hotter exhaust note for a while. (And let’s just ’fess up that, should the option present itself, we’d all press the button to engage it.)
Nope. My Focus RS pipes fake engine noise through the stereo, and I absolutely did not press the button to engage it. Because there is no button to engage or disengage it, and Ford doesn't even acknowledge it exists. But the module that generates the fake noise is trivially disconnected from the stereo, and I disconnected it shortly after buying the car. The dumbest thing about the noise is that it's exactly the noise you'd get from a flat 4 with unequal headers. Definitely not even a believable noise from an inline 4.
It does other fake things--like it dumps some extra fuel in the exhaust stroke to make the exhaust go POP POP POP between shifts. It sounds to me like poor tuning, and it's so very fake.
My distaste for the fake goes farther. A Miata with dual exhaust tips? Nope. (An inline 4 motorcycle with 4-4 exhaust? Hell yeah.)
The fake brake vents on my Subaru WRX? Nope.
I'm just a form-should-follow function kinda guy, and fake form really bothers me.
I know we get into this "what is fake" convo here and there and that's all well and good because we're here to talk, not solve, but I think you hit the nail on the head:
"I'm just a form-should-follow function kinda guy, and fake form really bothers me."
That's it for me. Totally.
For instance, way back when, I had performancey looking wheels on a bone stock slow Accord and couldn't bear to keep them on. All show and no go makes me cringe, pretty much any context. I try to keep my mouth shut and let people enjoy things, but inside I shake my head at the local auto parts guys who all rock Imprezas that are visually modded to appear rugged and ready for racing (or a turbo, though NA) but none of whom will take me up on the suggestion to take theirs on a rally or rallyCross with me. "It's not ready yet..."
In reply to Mr_Asa :
If it's that prevalent, that's pretty depressing and may be why so much of modern music sucks. None of them can sing. Probably chosen for their looks instead of their ability. I'll have to dig out my LPs and see if there is a difference in AC/DC from the 70s and today. I doubt there was much in the way of autotune in the 70s.
I am also not a big fan of Photoshop/Lightroom. The tendency to overprocess every image into some fantasy of what it was is not a style I like. Show me what the camera saw, not some fantastic representation of it. If not that, show me a before and after. We've had this discussion in some of the picture threads as well as earlier in this thread.
In reply to Toyman! :
It was commercially available in '97. Cher's Believe was the first to really play on it, so you can look before it as well.
And you aren't wrong. Watched a documentary on it a while back, and when it was released there were quotes from several producers who were excited about what it meant for boy bands and others where talent is the secondary characteristic. Rick Rubin has been quoted as saying its why everyone is pitch perfect, in perfect time, and in perfect tune. Its not a great thing, but you can find producers that use it for what its supposed to be and dont abuse it.
Sidenote: I encourage anyone that professes to hate autotune and hates T-Pain because of the rise of it to check out some of his acoustic work. The man has talent, he just found a hook to get people to pay attention to him.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
I don't know if it's specifically autotune or just sampling, but I berking hate the part at the end of that one Audioslave song where they pitchshift Chris Cornell's voice up and down. It's clearly obvious that it's manipulated, but even so it cheapens the amazing power and range he genuinely had.
Autotune is a symptom of overproduced pop music, and I tend to not like overproduced pop music. And by "tend" I mean "not at all."
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:maschinenbau said:Pretty much all cars are fake, ICE and EV included, and have always been fake. How can you advertise "300hp" and not have a single actual horse onboard?
Wellllll, if you silly 'Muricuns would adopt the metric system we'd be using kilowatts to describe our Dodge Chargers....
Edit: ....and an electric car's output is advertised in HP.......seems kinda silly.
What if we measured it in Pferdestarke?
Duke said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
I don't know if it's specifically autotune or just sampling, but I berking hate the part at the end of that one Audioslave song where they pitchshift Chris Cornell's voice up and down. It's clearly obvious that it's manipulated, but even so it cheapens the amazing power and range he genuinely had.
Autotune is a symptom of overproduced pop music, and I tend to not like overproduced pop music. And by "tend" I mean "not at all."
Show Me How To Live? Around 4:25 into the song?
Thats not any digital modulation, my friend, that is pure Chris Cornell. I saw them at one of the DC Chili Cookoffs (I think, it was in DC,) Chris kinda thumped his throat as he changed pitch.
In reply to prodarwin :
Kind of the same for me, but after watching reviews of the Ioniq 5 N, seems like the consensus is the fake engine noises/shifts are well done and make the car more fun and engaging. So, for an EV, I'm in - yes it's fake, you know it's fake, but it makes the drive more fun. Not so sure about the fake rev limiter...
When automakers (or anyone else) start referring to vehicles that are unibody, FWD-based station wagons with part of the roof cut off as "trucks", that's too far.
When they install 4 cylinder engines in full-size trucks, that's too far.
The National Park Service will cite drivers of "AWD" vehicles that attempt to drive on 4WD only trails. Looks like they've decided how much fakeness is OK, and what's not. I agree, and hope the trend continues.
I'm an engineer. Data tells my story. I do everything possible to get good repeatable data that tells the truth. Sometimes that makes manufacturers uncomfortable and they let us know.
But, I'm an engineer...data tells my story...
Duke said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Duke :
the skin on 'em is real
Don't care.
The sound waves that reach my ears are real sound waves, too.
But it's the source of the sensation that counts.
Her body, not yours... So maybe keep your opinion about it to yourself?
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