If ever an instructor did that in my car I would pull in the pits next time around (we would finish the lap at a crawl) and he WOULD get out of my car.... I don't care if you're Michael Schumacher, you're not going to grab my steering wheel while the car is moving...
ZOO wrote: He's not supportive, that's for sure. I once had an instructor grab the wheel and turn it, to show me the line he used -- specifically at what point he turned in. I wasn't happy with that.
Wow!
I don't have any experience with race instructors. I can say that if that ever happened to me on the street, the "instructor" would be standing by the curb at the first place I could stop without getting rear ended.
ClemSparks wrote:ZOO wrote: He's not supportive, that's for sure. I once had an instructor grab the wheel and turn it, to show me the line he used -- specifically at what point he turned in. I wasn't happy with that.Wow! I don't have any experience with race instructors. I can say that if that ever happened to me on the street, the "instructor" would be standing by the curb at the first place I could stop without getting rear ended.
We finished the session on that lap. My choice.
I don't think he intended it to be unsafe, I just don't think he was thinking about his actions.
He may have thought you had a different level of trust/understanding between the two of you than was actually there...
Clem
Per Schroeder wrote: My perspective: A lot of the fast autocross lines through a corner or series of corners will seek to cut distance—thus cutting the time spent going slowly. That will typically either wind up being a double apex deal or an 'early' late apex with less tracking out. That's in contrast to the traditional out-in-out with a late apex'ed corner that's typically taught for track use. It's a subtle difference... Now, the traditional racing line is typically thrown out of the window when you're dealing with traffic. In that case, the inside/shortest line might also come in handy.
PREACH! I'm no national trophy winning autoxer, but recognizing sections where minimizing distance will yield faster times than taking the traditional late-apex line is critical, especially in a stock...or simply 'underpowered' car.
ZOO wrote:ClemSparks wrote:I don't think he intended it to be unsafe, I just don't think he was thinking about his actions.ZOO wrote: I once had an instructor grab the wheel and turn it, to show me the line he used -- specifically at what point he turned in. I wasn't happy with that.Wow! I don't have any experience with race instructors. I can say that if that ever happened to me on the street, the "instructor" would be standing by the curb at the first place I could stop without getting rear ended.
I'm okay with that technique, but only if the instructor tells what he's going to do well in advance. Preferably they ask rather than tell. One of the best instructors I've ever had did that once, and following him through on the wheel taught me more than his explaining it every time for 100 laps would have.
BTW, that technique (following through on the controls) is fairly common in flight instruction.
What I've had instructors do, and what I do when helping friends or family get faster, is to hold their hands out in front like a steering wheel, and ghost drive the car for where they want to turn.
Yeah, you can't feel the inputs, but you can see them in your field of visions. Can help show turn-in points.
I do a lot of on-track instruction and I always tell the driver what I will be doing prior to doing it. Generally I will put 1 or 2 fingers on the wheel to modify thier input just enough. Sometimes if they ALWAYS turn in too early I will add resistance to the wheel and point it out that they should wait untill I release to turn in.
It is the instructors responsibility to interview the driver and have a clear understanding of what is expected by both parties while on track. One thing most DE students do not understand is that the Instructor IS in-charge on track and has the responsibity for Safety and Instruction. Many instructors don't fully understand thier responsibilites either. A strong instructor training program by the club/region really does wonders for professionalizim and consistency between instructors.
If you get a new instructor be sure to have the "Interview" face to face prior to going on track. Be clear about what you want to learn for that session and for the day. Understand what words will be used and what they mean.
Man was that instructor an asshat.
But what seems even worse to me then his comments was his overall attitude. Granted I have only done autocrosses... But not a single bit of that seemed at all unsafe. As long as the driver isn't pushing much harder then his skill level allows, or sliding every corner until the back wheel clips dirt I really don't understand an instructor refusing to continue with a driver because of his skill. Isn't the whole reason he is there to instruct? Instruction wouldn't be needed if the driver already had it down... The whole point would seem to be for him to ride with the drivers who are doing it wrong.
(and on a whole, it doesn't look like he is doing it THAT wrong...)
An instructor who refuses to ride with amateur drivers? eh?
Note, Alan was the first (and only) person who ever instructed me at autocross..and essentially gave me a light-bulb moment in one run. Thanks again, Alan!
admc58 wrote: I do a lot of on-track instruction and I always tell the driver what I will be doing prior to doing it.
It's hard to believe that wasn't some kind of inside prank/joke amongst the instructors...
With all the adrenaline pumping through the driver at that point, I can't imagine how he resisted at least a "trust me, I want you out of my car too" here and there.
Well done for the driver. Exhibited more maturity than was warranted for sure.
Add me to the list of those that wants to know what camera you used. Great video!
I also noticed that the "instructor" didn't have some kind of communication device with him... at speed, with windows open, it's very hard to hear / understand what an instructor is saying without a chatterbox or something similar ... I got so fed up with unprepared instructors that I bought my own ( it's since been borrowed by instructors that forgot theirs..
)
Soma007 wrote: That's actually my brother driving. Fortunately after he dropped off that guy he got a real instructor and was able to finish the session with much less drama. Jason
Jason,
You and your brother seem to be able to keep your cool pretty well, I would have told the dude to STFU and proceeded to give him the worst whiplash ever.
I gotta a funny feeling about that video, like it was a set-up and/or a joke vid. I've been around Thunderhill several hundred times, the driver had the line and looked like he knew the track fairly well. Why'd the instructor say "If you go to fast I'll yell SLOW DOWN ASSHOLE" and "I'll be quite for the first lap and watch what your doing" and then go right into ripping on the driver. I've never heard of a instructor acting like that, anything is possible I suppose, but something just doesn't add up with that video.
That seemed more like riding with a mother-in-law than an "instructor". As mentioned earlier, the only real useful comment the intstructor made was how to pull into the hot-pit.
Kudos to the driver for taking it in stride. Personally, I would have signalled to anyone behind me that I was pulling off the track, and dumped his butt at the group of corner-workers that I knew were the farthest away from the pits.
I don't know... Maybe that instructor had gotten stuck in previous weekends riding with a succession of total idiots, and in the back of his mind, already knew he was done. Maybe something in the front of his mind took a little longer to figure it out...
Just a theory.
Wow. That was awful. 
Why did the guy expect somebody in a Mazda 3 to take the RWD line?
What's that great Helen Hunt line from Twister"?
"..he really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer thing.."
Jason, glad to hear your bro eventually got someone who didn't have the anal-cranial modification. A weekend full of folks like that, and I would have gone back to street racing. And I think we all know that would be a "Bad Thing"..
That was just awful instruction. That guy should stick to driving his own car!
I'd like to know what they did say/do to that driver.
In reply to GR40RACER:
Its 100% not a joke. Check the comments on the Youtube video from the owner of the club that organized the track day. That "instructor" is no longer with them.
It really was his first track day. If autocross teaches you anything its how to figure out a line quickly because you only have a few shots at it.
Thanks to everyone for the positve comments on my brother. He did handle it very well. Probably better than I would have!
Jason
Heyward?
At first, I figured the instructor new the driver previously, and was just giving him a hard time. I'm a wisea$$ by nature, and wouldn't find the comments insulting from a friend. However, from a stranger it seemed odd. Then to come in at the end of the first lap was a bit weird. Definitely a bad day by the instructor. Helmet to helmet radio's do make a huge difference too.
Instructors are a nutty bunch. They must have serious intestinal fortitude. I know at my first hpde, i started fish tailing in a chicane due to cold tires. If I was an instructor in that situation, I might have soiled myself. Instead, I got a compliment on how I pulled myself out of it, and more encouragement. It takes a special breed to instruct. I don't think I could do it.
sachilles wrote: At first, I figured the instructor new the driver previously, and was just giving him a hard time. I'm a wisea$$ by nature, and wouldn't find the comments insulting from a friend. However, from a stranger it seemed odd.
He had a different instructor each session so that was his first encounter with him. If you listen at the beginning you can hear them introduce themselves.
I need that guy in my car as a coach. Not the passenger...the driver! Teach me how to stay that calm and collected.
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