How would you interpret these rules?

I was doing an SCCA rallycross event.  On my 6th run, a fuel hose popped off and I got red flagged.  I got pushed off, fixed it and lined back up.  I did my 7th and 8th runs then and my codriver finished his without issue.  I was just given a DNF time for my run when the hose popped off and I figured that was that.  Since in scca rallyx you are scored by all the runs combined, having a DNF put me in last.  My heat was over and I was working a corner in the next heat and driver had a tire debead.  She was flagged, limped off course, spent the remaining time fixing her tire, and was given two runs back to back about 5 minutes after the final car of the heat was done so she could score all her times.  Again, nbd since I figured there was some rule for tires vs a fuel hose.    However these are the actual rules on a mechanical failure during a run from that regions webpage "If a vehicle is unable to safely complete the course during competition and is red flagged, a rerun may be granted at the discretion of the RallyCross Chair(s) and/or acting Safety Steward if the vehicle is repaired within the 15 minute mechanical."  It doesn't say tire, debead, or specify anything.  I asked later and they said I should have said something right away, well, I didn't even know this was an option since I couldn't exactly whip out my phone and read the rules on course, plus the event was moving along.  So what would you do in this situation?  Anything? Thoughts for the future?  Just looking for feedback I guess

I would let it go this time, but keep that rule in mind for future events. It's never a bad idea to get familiar with rule book, by the way.

It is up to the competitor to know, and understand the rules. Sucks that it went down that way, but you really can't blame them.

It is up to you to know the rules, that's covered. 

But, in the interest of covering all angles:  Did you talk to her about it?  Did she talk to the officials and get permission, or did they just tell her to do that?

Just wondering if you upset someone at some point, or if someone has a soft spot for her.  Favoritism and grudges turn hobbies ugly.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I have no clue what that other driver did or said.  I was just on course watching it all happen.  

With national event supps you can get one rerun per event for a debead but mechanical failures are a DNF. Someone more familiar with those rules than the local rules may think to request the rerun after a debead or point it out to the driver to request. Either way, once the heat has ended and run groups are switched there is nothing you can do. 

In reply to camopaint0707 :

Wasn't sure if you talked to her afterwards or what.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Nah, not like she did anything wrong.  More so I just observed her situation is all.  

I was curious about this so I went and actually read the 2024 rulebook.  There's absolutely nothing in there about red flags, re-runs, or anything.  The only mention of mechanical failure is that a competitor is allowed to complete their runs in a same-class vehicle if their entry has a mechanical issue.  There's no sort of #include that I see in the rules where it's automatically incorporating something else.  In last years National event sups, the DNF can be given for a red flag thrown because your car is mechanically unsafe - and I think a fuel leak would qualify - and the only mechanical issue that they specify a re-run for is a de-beaded tire, assuming you can fix it in 5 minutes.  Somewhat surprising to me is that the term "DNF" does not appear in the rulebook.  I suppose that would have to fall under the "additional time penalties" specified in the event supplementals portion of the rules.

Assuming that what you quoted was from the region's event supplementals, then I would argue that any mechanical failure would be eligible for a re-run if the RX chair or safety steward said it was okay.  And that's the crux of it, I think:  It isn't an automatic thing, it's something you have to ask for and get approved.  Personally, I am not a fan of rules that include the words "at the discretion of" because there's too much opportunity for accusations of favoritism or inconsistency, real or imagined, and I think that something like that should avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Not knowing anyone in the story or having been there, my initial reaction would not be to chalk it up to malice but just to habits.  Anyone familiar with the National supps would definitely be thinking that a de-bead should get a re-run while a fuel leak would not.  Had you gone up and asked for the re-run it probably would have at least sparked the curiosity of why you would think you should get one and give people the opportunity to realize there was a supplemental rule in the region that could be used to accommodate your request.  I would like to think that the request would have been granted, but I have no idea.

The last time I was at Nationals, which was maybe 2 years ago, I completely screwed myself because I didn't read and understand the National supps.  I had a de-bead on course and I knew it, but I didn't get red-flagged.  I should have stopped on course, taken my 5 minute mechanical to fix the de-bead, and gotten a re-run.  Instead I got a terrible time because I was trying to lose as little time as possible to avoid getting a DNF time.  Took me completely out of contention.

In reply to wae :

The only reason I didn't ask for a rerun at the time was I saw on the live timing a DNF score of 999.999 and no event lead approached me so I just figured that was that.  It wasn't until Monday I read the supplemental rules and noticed it just said mechanical failure but it was vague on what that actually is.  In the region supplementals debead isn't listed once.

You've answered your own question.

Dont complain or you'll be branded as the grumpy old man/complainer of the group.

I didn't take it as a complaint, but more of an opportunity to know for next time.

In reply to Ranger50 :

That's literally the entire SCCA.  We complain about everything......

Trying not to make any assumptions. BUT, sometimes someone new will be told the rules when something like that happens, when someone who has been doing it for a while will be assumed that they know the rules. 
 

Again, just a possibility, no assumption that the driver was new or experienced. 
 

That, and maybe the person who told her was part of her over reaching "team" if that makes sense. Another reason to get to know as many people as you can when you compete, as one of your friends might have told you at the event. 

I had an advantage in local racing (Pacific Northwest and British Columbia) in one racing organization - I was a lawyer and I actually read the rules very carefully before racing. I ended up being responsible for a few rule amendments too.  For instance, they allowed a race windscreen that could be fitted on open sports cars if the stock windshield was removed, but failed to specify a minimum height for it. They later changed that rule after I ran with a 1/4" high but of plexi mounted in an alloy base that acted (slightly) as a wind deflector.  

Similarly, they allowed an air dam, and did specify the mounting height where it attached to the body, vis a vis the height of the front wheel hubs, but made no mention of a minimum off-track clearance.  Most people used a rigid plastic air dam or spoiler and were careful to maintain a clearance even under hard braking to avoid cracking the hard material.  I created an air dam that had a rigid upper portion but had stiff but flexible industrial conveyor belting material on the bottom that was a half inch off the road surface at rest but actually contacted the road under braking at the end of the straights.  I picked up a reliable 300 rpm by the end of the straight with it, a small but useful improvement. They argued that it was illegal and I responded that it would be only if they got around to rewriting the rule (they did). Should have charged them for sweeping gravel off the track for them!

My reading of your situation would be that unless the rule clearly covered the situation, it shouldn't be held against you and you should have been able to take an extra run, but it was up to you to know the rules well enough to ask for it.

I was under the impression that a DNF gave you the slowest time in class +15 seconds.  I don't see it in the rulebook but I could have sworn it was there.

Sometimes, autocross based timing software reports a DNF as a 999 and it has to be manually fixed after the event when using this rule.  You might want to double check your position in the results.

ojannen said:

I was under the impression that a DNF gave you the slowest time in class +15 seconds.  I don't see it in the rulebook but I could have sworn it was there.

It should be in the supps for the event. We use slowest raw time in class for the run +10 seconds. 

I was there, and very probably benefited from your misfortune. More on that in a minute. 

My gut says that debeads are common and most people know that when you debead you can rerun if you fix your issue promptly. Certainly the driver who had the debead is well aware. As a result, everyone involved simply assumed a rerun was coming. Your issue seemed more serious and I would imagine that folks just assumed you were done for the day. Had you known the rules in advance, you could certainly have asked for a rerun and I think it would have been granted. I think you'd have been more inclined to get your car down the hill and back in line had you known it was a option. In my mind the only "maybe" there is that a fuel leak has risk potential that a debead doesn't have. 

I see that the times have been corrected and you now show as having finished 5th. 

I won the SA class on Sunday. I had time on you in the morning session but you were very rapidly closing the gap in the afternoon. Coulda/Woulda/Shoulda, but there's a good chance that you'd have overtaken me if your third run was close to your first and second afternoon runs. You were faster than me in the afternoon - I knew you were coming. 

Hope to see you on the course again soon! 

EvanB said:

ojannen said:

I was under the impression that a DNF gave you the slowest time in class +15 seconds.  I don't see it in the rulebook but I could have sworn it was there.

It should be in the supps for the event. We use slowest raw time in class for the run +10 seconds. 

For the Susquehanna region:

● In the case of a Did Not Finish (DNF) or a jump start, a bogey time will be awarded for that run. Bogey times will be calculated based on an individual competitor’s slowest time plus 20 seconds, including penalties, per run group. In the event a competitor DNFs on the first run, the bogey time will be based on the slowest subsequent run. If no subsequent runs are completed, all runs will be scored as a Did Not Start (DNS) (999 seconds).

In reply to Motojunky :

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII, To be fair craig i'm not actually asking for a change or anything.  I just posted here to see what others thought as well.  It's really not a big deal as I should have gotten a DNF and lilly should have gotten a rerun.  The rules are just poorly worded is all.  When I started that run is was .2 ahead of you.  My afternoon runs were way faster, plus mark and I decided to stop hitting cones on purpose.  I didn't notice they changed my time.  That's cool.  At the end of the day, it's just a local rallyx.  I just more so don't want it to happen again.

camopaint0707 said:

In reply to Motojunky :

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII, To be fair craig i'm not actually asking for a change or anything.  I just posted here to see what others thought as well.  It's really not a big deal as I should have gotten a DNF and lilly should have gotten a rerun.  The rules are just poorly worded is all.  When I started that run is was .2 ahead of you.  My afternoon runs were way faster, plus mark and I decided to stop hitting cones on purpose.  I didn't notice they changed my time.  That's cool.  At the end of the day, it's just a local rallyx.  I just more so don't want it to happen again.

I didn't read it as you wanting to change anything - just you looking for clarity. Based on my read of the rules, I figured it covered any mechanical issue that you could fix in 15 minutes. I'm pretty new at this, but from what I've seen, it seems that they are pretty liberal with that 15 minutes. I do think that you'd have gotten a rerun if you'd have asked. 
 

I don't know what my deal was in the afternoon. The course was open and fast and I just wasn't. I smoked my clutch but I genuinely don't think it had any significant impact on my times - it just slipped a bunch on the 1-2 shift on the last few runs. Maybe a tenth or two... maybe.