mtn said:
In reply to mfennell :
A lot, if not a majority, of the folks at Rivian seem to be ex-Mitsubishi, ex-Caterpillar, ex-Deere, or ex-Big 3.
Here is a haggerty article on an interview with their founder from 2010: https://www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/before-his-battery-behemoths-rivians-billionaire-founder-made-an-eco-sports-car/
When I built my house I hired people with no construction experience at all.
I didn't want to spend time explaining why I was doing the things I did.
You really don't want experience when you have your own vision of what can be done.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 8:31 a.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
That's a really condescending and insulting attitude to people who have spent many years learning and developing skills.
If you want unskilled people, fine. I don't. I want to surround myself with as many great people as I can. I want to entrust them to bring their experience and knowledge to what I am doing and improve it. I'm well aware that there are people with more talents than me, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Tesla needs great engineers.
Opti
SuperDork
7/5/23 8:57 a.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
When I hear people say they dont want experienced people, its generally because they are insecure in their beliefs. You want competent people, and if they disagree with your processes and you have an actual good reason to do the things you plan, you should be able to express it and defend your decisions. If you are doing dumb things and dont have a good reason, you want people that wont question it.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 9:01 a.m.
Hiring inexperienced people to do menial construction labor is a LOT different than hiring engineers to design new vehicles and autonomous technologies.
Maybe that's why the Cybertruck can't seem to solve its suspension issues?
I've spent time in the shops of Benson Woodworking, and spent quite a bit of time with Tedd Benson one-on-one. He owns one of the premier timber framing companies in the world. He made me an offer to come work with him. He would NEVER hire inexperienced people to build his timber frames.
Just a thought...
In reply to frenchyd :
Not hiring people with experience is a great approach, just like this innovator who wasn't tied to convention like those killjoys at the Manned Underwater Vessel Committee.
"The now-missing CEO of a company that takes passengers onboard a submersible to see the site of the Titanic wreckage once told how he refused to hire '50-year-old white guys' with military expertise because they are not 'inspirational.'"
Sometimes professionals do things a certain way because it's effective. There's a reason commercial buyers are getting EVs from commercial builders and not "innovative" newcomers. There's more involved in getting a vehicle to work well than there is converting the powertrain.
Opti said:
In reply to frenchyd :
When I hear people say they dont want experienced people, its generally because they are insecure in their beliefs. You want competent people, and if they disagree with your processes and you have an actual good reason to do the things you plan, you should be able to express it and defend your decisions. If you are doing dumb things and dont have a good reason, you want people that wont question it.
that or they are about to do some super sketchy E36 M3 they know someone with a brain would never allow.
In reply to SV reX :
We tested a turbine electric hybrid years ago from a new company. It was going to be less expensive, easier to maintain, and more efficient than the cummins powered Orion hybrids we were buying at the time. The layout was a bit awkward but our operators got used to it, and the initial testing on flat ground was ok so the put it on a longer route. As it climbed onto the Tribough Bridge with a standing load of people it stopped. They hadn't tested it on an incline with a full load and it lacked the power to make it onto the bridge. Because I was working a dispatcher post nearby I had to walk up onto the bridge, and help these people cram into already crowded buses to get off the highway. Buses that had no problem stopping, being overloaded, and getting going again because their builder accounted for things like passengers. The rest of its time with us it would just go out occasionally with a load of sandbags to get stuck on various hills.
I know when I go to the doctor, I always try to find the one with the least experience...
SV reX said:
In reply to frenchyd :
That's a really condescending and insulting attitude to people who have spent many years learning and developing skills.
If you want unskilled people, fine. I don't. I want to surround myself with as many great people as I can. I want to entrust them to bring their experience and knowledge to what I am doing and improve it. I'm well aware that there are people with more talents than me, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Tesla needs great engineers.
Not at all. In time most people fixate on solving problems or issues the way they are familiar with. I know I do.
I was paying them $20/ hour. When $10 was normal. I didn't want to spend time discussing why I wanted to do something in a particular way.
I just explained to them what I wanted them to do. They'd do it and sometimes come up with creative ways to achieve the same end results , easier, faster, or better.
The "trick" is to get good people willing to work and use their brain.
Realize that my house is not built in the traditional way. In 20+ years selling to the housing industry and plenty of timber framers I've never seen a double timber frame. But it's what I wanted.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 10:08 a.m.
Haha!
Somehow that seems ridiculously appropriate to this thread!
racerfink said:
I know when I go to the doctor, I always try to find the one with the least experience...
When I go to a doctor. I look for a younger woman. The numbers are pretty clear. Men make more fatal mistakes than women. And People fresh out of training are going to be more familiar with the newest procedures. Their training is such that senior doctors have agreed they can take peoples lives in their hands.
There is an exception of course. When something extraordinary is involved, I'll defer to well respected experts.
My personal experience confirms that. The three life critical issues I've experienced were all caused by male older doctors.
Plus my 1/2 brother Harvard Med Johns Hopkins intern, Rhodes scholar, Mayo Clinic experienced. Has made several medical mistakes that cost people their lives.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 10:19 a.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
I know how important it is for you to believe you are a "good guy" in this, but it's still insulting.
You were paying $20 per hour when the going rate for skilled people was $25 or $30, because YOU thought YOU knew more than they did.
Im not concerned with the low skilled people you hired. Ok, you overpaid them for their lack of skills. As a construction professional with over 45 years experience (and years of timber frame experience), you are telling me that my skills aren't important, and that I can be replaced by any inexperienced guy off the street, as long as YOU are telling him what to do.
Its skilled people like me you are insulting. But no problem. I am completely used to it from you. Bless your heart.
Edit: ...and I'm pretty sure many of the engineers here don't feel good when you imply that Musk is making a good business decision by hiring engineers without experience.
Medicine is not relevant to this discussion is it? And besides I find as a profession they are trying to surpass lawyers in loss of trust currently. That's probably not a topic anyone cares to discuss openly or honestly.
frenchyd said:
racerfink said:
I know when I go to the doctor, I always try to find the one with the least experience...
When I go to a doctor. I look for a younger woman. The numbers are pretty clear.
They also generally have smaller fingers.
frenchyd said:
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to SV reX :
We tested a turbine electric hybrid years ago from a new company. It was going to be less expensive, easier to maintain, and more efficient than the cummins powered Orion hybrids we were buying at the time. The layout was a bit awkward but our operators got used to it, and the initial testing on flat ground was ok so the put it on a longer route. As it climbed onto the Tribough Bridge with a standing load of people it stopped. They hadn't tested it on an incline with a full load and it lacked the power to make it onto the bridge. Because I was working a dispatcher post nearby I had to walk up onto the bridge, and help these people cram into already crowded buses to get off the highway. Buses that had no problem stopping, being overloaded, and getting going again because their builder accounted for things like passengers. The rest of its time with us it would just go out occasionally with a load of sandbags to get stuck on various hills.
Even experts make mistakes.
An expert doesn't usually assume that the little motor the were using to push a 25 ft college campus bus was going to work on a 40 ft city bus. The other companies weren't using bigger motors because of outdated thinking, but they understood physics.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
Medicine is not relevant to this discussion is it? And besides I find as a profession they are trying to surpass lawyers in loss of trust currently. That's probably not a topic anyone cares to discuss openly or honestly.
I don't know if it's them or the insurance companies that pay them that cause a lot of issues lately.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 11:17 a.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
No Frenchy. You do not understand me AT ALL.
I'm not a timber framer. I'm a builder. Licensed in 4 states. With a design degree. I've built in 10 different countries, and most of my projects are now $5-10 million.
Oh, and guess what?? I can drive a tellehandler too!
Big deal. I still want to hire people who are better than me for virtually every trade. I'm not better than them.
You aren't either.
SV reX
MegaDork
7/5/23 11:40 a.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
That's nice. It has absolutely ZERO to do with EVs, and most definitely DOES NOT offer any justification whatsoever for Musk hiring inexperienced and unqualified engineers.
That does not make him a good businessman. It just makes him an opportunist. And it goes a long way toward explains why he can't get the Cybertruck to market.
Tom1200
PowerDork
7/5/23 11:49 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
Medicine is not relevant to this discussion is it? And besides I find as a profession they are trying to surpass lawyers in loss of trust currently. That's probably not a topic anyone cares to discuss openly or honestly.
Most importantly this place is meant as an escape...............our version of tough topics is why someone wants to put an Ecoboost in a Rad Era Porsche.
SV reX said:
In reply to frenchyd :
That's nice. It has absolutely ZERO to do with EVs, and most definitely DOES NOT offer any justification whatsoever for Musk hiring inexperienced and unqualified engineers.
That does not make him a good businessman. It just makes him an opportunist. And it goes a long way toward explains why he can't get the Cybertruck to market.
I understand Henry Ford was sort of the same way. ( different and earlier ) but hired a lot of farm boys because they knew how to work.
I'm guessing here But I think about 5% of the American car buying public will be buying EV's this year.
Followed by 10%
Etc .
With a very good possibility of 50% by 2030.
I can understand someone with a perfectly good ICE car waiting until one is needed
Plus some people would simply like to see a majority do it. Before they will commit.
Finally maybe 2% never will no matter what,
that's not Lithium Ion smoke you smell..............it's my brain working over time on how I can introduce a new variable to push this to 2000 posts.
