I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

frenchyd said:

      Pretty sure Kia/ Hyundai's EV's are made in China.  As are Japanese brands.  

Do you get anything right? Try their homeland South Korea

bobzilla said:

frenchyd said:

      Pretty sure Kia/ Hyundai's EV's are made in China.  As are Japanese brands.  

Do you get anything right? Try their homeland South Korea

Didn't even originally get right that Volvo invented the 3-point seat belt, but didn't patent it so everyone could use the same design. 

The complete lack of information and sources is frustrating. 

In reply to z31maniac :

It's easier to sidestep and move the goalposts when you literally make everything up on the fly.

frenchyd said:

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to frenchyd :

 Tesla's system is reported faultless  and extremely fast.  Plug it into the charger and that $5-6 charge is automatic no card needed

Show us where you got this number.

I'll be glad to show you where I got that number.  Stop by and we'll walk up to his house and ask  him pull down the menu. 

Costs to use a Tesla Supercharger vary just like ICE fuel prices do. Most current articles say the average price is around $0.25/kwh but can easily be double that.

Since you're in MN, we can look at up to date BLS data and see that current average price for a kwh of electricity is $0.20:

So with zero transmission losses, and zero money for Tesla, the $6 charging cost would give you 30kwh of electricity. Depending on trim level and battery chemistry, a Tesla Model 3 has a battery capacity between 50-85kwh and averages around 4 miles of travel per kwh. So you'd get 35-60% capacity or ~120 miles of range for your $6 (again that doesn't include charging losses or money to Tesla for using their charger). In reality, you're going to get less range than that for the money.

$6 wouldn't even fully charge a Tesla at home if you're paying anything close to the average price per kwh.

Earlier this year, electricity prices rose enough that people in the North East were paying more to charge their EVs AT HOME than they would've paid to grab a tank of unleaded.

Assuming a constant, cheap supply of electricity might end up being a mistake unless you're able to make your own. But we've been down that road multiple times already in this thread and don't need to venture off topic once more.

In reply to STM317 :

See, you put in effort. He's going to ignore it or have some other excuse etc. 

In reply to STM317 :

I'm curious,  What is the "usage fee" amount that Tesla adds to use their chargers?  Is it added per kwh or is it a flat fee per charge/hook up?

No doubt they're getting paid, and will continue to once Ford vehicles can charge there too.

In reply to Indy - Guy :

I know that the guy I used to work with said it was a flat fee of $9 back ..... 3 years ago?

EDIT: memory is fuzzy on the actual amount now that I realize its been over 4 years.... but at that time here it was a flat fee.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'll be glad to show you where I got that number.  Stop by and we'll walk up to his house and ask  him pull down the menu. 
 

Or I could just link this...

Motor Trend “How much does it cost to charge a Tesla?”

Interesting that fast charging costs more per mile than fueling a Prius. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

That's a good article packed with information.  Thanks for sharing it.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

interesting. At our current rate the Forte, with its fun turbo and manual trans, is about 9 cents per mile. 15k per year that's $1350. 

Tesla Model 3 with 272 mile range would cost me at home $13.77 to charge to 80%. That works out to about $758/year in cost. 

Tesla model 3 cost before taxes or breaks $47k. Even if you could magically remove the tax deduction at purchase price you're still looking at $40k (42800 with sales tax). Forte was $27800 (29700 with sales tax). Now, Indiana charges $50 more per year for EV's since they do not pay any gas tax at the pump. With the inflated list price, plates/registration would be $544 and slowly go down to $109 after 10 years. The forte is $260, and will go down to $59 at 10 years. Literally double. 

At 15k per year, I save $304 in fuel/energy costs. 43 years to make up the difference. Even adding in my oil changes per year ($19 oil, $6 filter, 3 times a year) thats an additional $75 in maintenance. That's only 35 years to make up the difference. 

What could I do with that difference of $13,100 for 30 years invested?  At a modest 5% a year that ends up around $56k. 7% would be $100k

In reply to Indy - Guy :

There was another good article linked within that one, that compares the price of home charging by state. It is pretty eye opening seeing the differences. 
 

EV Home Charging by State

I started checking this out when I was looking at buying a Lightning. Conventional wisdom was that EV's were cheap to charge, and in a high gas price state like CA, it was a no brainer. But we also have very expensive electricity, which offsets much of the gas savings. That was charging at night with the special EV rate. Charging during the wrong time of day could be almost as much as gas. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

interesting, our rates went up again. We are paying just under 21 cents per kwh.

Did you ever think that increasing the number of EVs will increase demand for electricity which will increase the price of electricity.

Then there is the cost of upgrading the grid, building new power plants and so on. Even if you power it from solar panels and windmills on top of your house, the money to buy the solar panels and windmills has to come from somewhere. The stuff isn't free, even though telemarketers keep calling and telling me it is.

In reply to bobzilla :

Don't do the math!  How dare you!  
 

It is always more economical to keep what you have until repair costs exceed new costs.  

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Did you ever think that increasing the number of EVs will increase demand for electricity which will increase the price of electricity.

Then there is the cost of upgrading the grid, building new power plants and so on. Even if you power it from solar panels and windmills on top of your house, the money to buy the solar panels and windmills has to come from somewhere. The stuff isn't free, even though telemarketers keep calling and telling me it is.

Beat that drum!  It is the correct drum for this song too, but few want to hear the music.

In reply to frenchyd :

I have a different one ( same rates)  plus you have to realize  that needing a full charge will be a very rare event. 
   That means you traveled the full range of your EV every day.  If the range is 300 miles that's 109,000 miles a year.
 

I'm not following you. The rate doesn't change with the amount charged. If you fully charge in one day or 20% every day for 5 days, or 10% for 10 days, the cost is linear to the total consumption. The meter doesn't care. 

I think you had confused home charging rates with Supercharging rates when you said $6 to get 150-200 miles in 15 minutes. $6 is close to your home charging rate, but it's not happening in 15 minutes at home. Unless you live at Elon Musk's house. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Did you ever think that increasing the number of EVs will increase demand for electricity which will increase the price of electricity.

Then there is the cost of upgrading the grid, building new power plants and so on. Even if you power it from solar panels and windmills on top of your house, the money to buy the solar panels and windmills has to come from somewhere. The stuff isn't free, even though telemarketers keep calling and telling me it is.

Absolutely and I think many of us have said as before. We aren't building enough capacity or infrastructure to support increased capacity fast enough. Many states (mine included) already see multiple power interruptions during the summer months because of the heat. 

And solar and wind production aren't really producing much during the evening, when charging should theorectically be the cheapest if you're charging at home. 

z31maniac said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Did you ever think that increasing the number of EVs will increase demand for electricity which will increase the price of electricity.

Then there is the cost of upgrading the grid, building new power plants and so on. Even if you power it from solar panels and windmills on top of your house, the money to buy the solar panels and windmills has to come from somewhere. The stuff isn't free, even though telemarketers keep calling and telling me it is.

Absolutely and I think many of us have said as before. We aren't building enough capacity or infrastructure to support increased capacity fast enough. Many states (mine included) already see multiple power interruptions during the summer months because of the heat. 

And solar and wind production aren't really producing much during the evening, when charging should theorectically be the cheapest if you're charging at home. 

 

Here in Texas we are going to have to expand the grid just to support all the new people coming here, whether they drive EVs or not. That means electric bills are going to go up. If everyone is supposed to be buying EVs, it will have to expand even further. More money.

We are going to need more charging sites in more places. If you live in an apartment, as of now, you have no place to charge at home. How much will it cost to upgrade apartments built 40 years ago to acommodate 50% of the tenents needing to charge their cars every day? Can you even do that? It won't be cheap.

Right now I see news articles all over the place stating that dealers that last year were out of everything now have unsold EVs stacking up on their lots. I have said this before and I will say it again. Everybody wants to sell at the high end of the market. Nobody wants to build the low end cars. Many years ago you had Cadillac, Lincoln and Chrysler Imperial with maybe a few Mercedes imported. Now everybody wants to build an EV that costs 60K or more and nobody wants to be in the low priced market. We may have a recession coming and many people are already spreading car payments out over 8 to 10 years. This will not end well.

frenchyd said:

      Pretty sure Kia/ Hyundai's EV's are made in China.  As are Japanese brands.  

huh, it's funny that the VIN on my EV6 starts with K which means it was made in Korea

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm only replying to this to help Tom hit his goal. Almost all of your misinformation has already been corrected earlier in this thread. But I will give you partial credit for creating some new misinformation on solar, not easy to do. 
 

Depending on where you live solar panel can make economic sense.  And you don't have to trust the panel salesman to find that out. 
 

Yes! You are finally getting it!

 The weather department has your Zip codes , sunlight average. Going back over 100 years.  Use a 20% conversion rate (most new ones are 22%. )

  That should tell you how many years to pay off.  High altitude  in south West states  can reach that payoff very quickly. Sea level in North East states may take double that time. 
 

False alarm. You still don't get it. Weather? Altitude? Minor factors. While they have an influence, energy usage, energy cost, and cost of the solar system are the driving factors on ROI. There is an elephant in the room wearing a hat, and you are focusing on the hat. 
 

 The new panels  themselves now have a 30 year performance guarantee    How much solar conversion will be lost by the end of 30 years.  
 Next you need to go to your states  rules.  All states will connect you to the grid.  ( Yes even Florida and California give credits). Not a lot of states will send you a check for excess energy,over what you use. Typically they will give you credits .   While those can be sold. It's far easier to use what you make.  If you use less than $100 a month of electricity it will take you a long time to pay off the panels. As your electric bill gets higher the pay off is quicker.  
trees,  buildings, etc to your south  reduce effectiveness 

California doesn't offer the same net metering anymore. They give you partial credit during the peak solar time and charge more during peak time of use. You need a battery to make solar viable, with adds cost and reduced ROI. 

Hence the solar  and EV connection.   Your excess during the day is credited to your night use.  Typically most houses are empty during the day. Use very little electricity.  So you burn through those credits at night. 
 

It still doesn't work that way, nothing has changed since a few pages ago. Peak production and peak use don't match up. See why California changed it's rules above. 
 

here's the short version 

  You stop paying your electric bill if you have panels and the money you would have paid pays for the panels. 
     
 The grids demand to charge EV's is at night when business and factories don't have  any demand. 
 

Most of the factories are in China. You are a few decades late. It's data centers now. They still run at night. Stores are open too. People don't go to bed at sundown anymore. 
 

This is a question just for Frenchyd to see if he is actually reading replies or just speed reading over them. True or False: The official racing color of Jaguar was British Racing Pink. 

Just because you say the same misinformation a thousand times still doesn't make it true.