My One Lap co-driver sent me some pictures from is Track Night event at Circuit of the Americas.
I believe that we've peeled back a layer on the mystery of our disappearing brake pads. Any suggestions on brake upgrades and cooling would be greatly appreciated.
Well, you can do a lot of brake cooling via ducts often people use where foglights were. Does anyone make one of these for the honda?
https://www.flyinmiata.com/2-5-inch-brake-ducts.html
You might be able to ask Ryan if they could help you make some custom ones or have a shop weld you a set. You want to blow the air from inside out from what I have been told so the hot air has someplace to go
A larger disc/caliper setup also has more surface area which helps and more braking force which if you don't need to use as much might help too?
Looks good to me. If they aren't red, you need to go faster.
Was I the only one that read the thread title as a Zepplin song?
" I think we need brake cooling....... " and baby I'm not foolin'!
I'm gonna send you back to schoolin'
Way down inside, honey you need it
I'm gonna give you my ducts
I'm gonna give you my ducts
Want a whole lotta ducts
Want a whole lotta ducts
Want a whole lotta ducts....
1. More airflow aka ducts: cheap and effective
2. Pads that can survive the heat
3. More "thermal mass" aka larger rotor diameter: requires different calipers or brackets, changes system balance, not cheap unless junkyard bolt-on.
Yeah, 2. What pads are you running?
Maybe tear it down to the knuckle and build some fancy 'dust shields' for the backside that incorporate either a big air scoop on the front or a 2-3" barb for a flexible duct up to the foglight areas?
My understanding of the math is that slowing a given car weighing X from 120-70 requires that you turn that much momentum into heat. The heat goes into the rotor/pads and everything they touch and ultimately into the air. It takes a given amount of energy to heat up a gram of rotor one degree and you only have so many grams to heat up. Bigger rotors will store more heat and provide a larger surface area to contact the air to shed the heat. We need to increase the rate at which we shed heat or add metal to the system or both. Brake ducts are part of the upcoming splitter build.
My general feeling at this point is that brakes are a safety item. We've had brake issues both years that we've run the car and I'm tired of it. This year we ran Carbotech XP-12 pads and wore them to the backing plates (we need to check them more often, we know) I'm pretty sure the car was running last year's XP-10's in the photo and they were gone soon after the pictures. Currently we're out of pads, the rotors are lunched, and the calipers are functional but crispy. Now would be a good time to upgrade.
We're looking hard at consumable cost. Our cost assumption is that we'll use one set of pads/rotors in testing, put on new stuff for the event, and carry the takeoffs for spares as we have in the past. We're pretty happy with Carbotech, they've worked well, no fading in either compound and we trust them.
for a cheap bigger brake option, the rsx-s came with bigger calipers/pads and probably used the same/similar mac strut setup up front. could be worth a look.
Seth,
Shameless self-promotion here but I've got a pair of Stoptech 4 piston calipers and two-piece rotors plus brackets pads and stainless lines for sale. ST-40 calipers in black. Kit was for a 2002 WRX and the rotor hats are dual-drilled with both 5x100 and 5x114.3 BCP. $550 plus shipping. Only used very lightly before bought them in...um...well a long time back.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
Your understanding of the math is correct.
Cooling ducts will make a big difference.
They don't have to be fancy. Just aim them at the center of the rotor.
We found an excellent heat resistance quality within the Hawk line. Dtc-60 comes to mind, but the brake pedal becomes a little less modulatable. They slowed out much heavier car with similar size brakes for the 24 hours of Lemons, usually lasting two races.
Im all for the brake upgrade idea but I would be surprised if you needed anything more than a bigger Honda setup from a TL-S or something like that. Consumable costs will probably be less with a 'big oem' setup then an aftermarket, but i'm no expert on the specifics in this case.
In reply to tuna55 :
How can you tell when it's just a temperature range issue?
Clearly, addressing ducting and pad range are all part of the same thing, but in all honesty I'm not sure how to choose what avenues to go down. We"ve got 3-4 track weekends of testing before next year if we really throw our energy into it.
In reply to Vigo :
This is the first time I've had issues with stock size brakes on anything. On the V-wagon, the old Civic, and the Accord I've done fine with good pads and fluid. On paper this car should be fine.
Carbotechs will wear to nothing fast if you don't bed them in properly. I learned the hard way. Did you follow the bedding procedures for the? I used to run Hawks and could just throw them on the car, run a few hard stops, and they were good. Carbotechs work better but need proper bedding. I get 8 - 10 track days out of my fronts on the Miata.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
I know it sounds strange but the color is actually a great indicator.
Judging by that picture you’re probably under 1000f. That’s not unreasonable and certainly hawk (and others) have brake pads which operate in that range.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/know-temperature-when-metal-glows-red/
If you end up going with a brake kit I'd just reach out to fastbrakes and see what they say. They've got an RL caliper adapter kit that seems like an easier way to get to 4 piston calipers over pretty large rotors. http://www.fastbrakes.com/product_p/civicrl-12.6.htm
Do price out consumables though. I've got an Integra and going to a wilwood setup broke even on the 2nd set of pads/rotors and saved money from the 3rd on compared to larger OE brakes.
Cooling always helps. I've known some people who had good luck fabbing up c6 z06 brake ducts into other cars, ex: https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=523703
Fitz said:Cooling always helps. I've known some people who had good luck fabbing up c6 z06 brake ducts into other cars, ex: https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=523703
^That's pretty impressive.
It sounds to me that you need to do some brakes so that you can be more confident in the car, going overboard with brakes is never something that I would say don't do its a safety margin. Your wear could very well be from not bedding a proper transfer layer onto the brakes when you first get them or you may need to evaluate your or your co-drivers driving style and accept you are harder on brakes. Either way ducts are usually very cheap to fab something up.
My advice:
1) You don't need fancy ducted backing plates, the pressure drop (flow restriction) at the nozzle isn't worth the trouble. Pull of the OEM's & aim the biggest duct you can fit in there at the center of the rotor.
2) Your experience w/Carbotech's is the same as many here. I welded the backing plate to a caliper piston at 3-4 hours of run time. Get PFC's (01's longtime favorite here) or Hawks (DTC60's a good start).
3) If you still can't get any pad life & are smearing or cracking rotors, it's time for a BBK. Take your time researching the options & get something that's engineered specifically for your platform. Piston sizes & rotor diameters (F&R) should be matched to your OEM master cylinder. You can engineer a swap on your own to save money, but will have to sweat the development & test time as a cost.
As others have said, I'm not sure the pictures are indicators of needing upgrades, dusky photos tend to do that as seen below.
The picture below is from last July on the same set of PFC 01's we ran this weekend. I just ordered replacement front pads yesterday after 22 track days, a couple thousand street miles and lord knows how many dozens of auto-x runs. (Matt uses the 08's and they last even longer but they don't make them for my calipers)
Honda's being the lego's that they are if there is a proven OEM bolt on upgrade with junkyard parts I'd probably do that and then order PFC pads for it. They're expensive enough that you don't want to try a pad experiment and then find out you threw $700 out the window on pads for a setup that won't work.
Being that the car gets used in a manner which dictates 3 back to back 11/10's laps on an unfamiliar track I don't know that it's possible to have too much brake on reserve (assuming they're at operating temp) going to a true BBK has merit in that it makes pad swaps faster and the common ones might open up even more pad choices for you if they use that caliper shape on many platforms. But will come at a far greater cost. If this was a less common car that might be my default option but, Honda's are a pretty well sorted track car in general so I'd suspect you could make a junkyard setup work if you wanted too.
Yeah glowing brakes in nighttime photos don't necessarily indicate too much brake heat, but any car that does laps around larger tracks should have brake ducting, it will definitely improve brake pad life.
I wouldn't recommend completely removing your brake disc backing plates though, as this tends to shorten the life of nearby suspension parts through increased heat transmission and brake dust showering. It's better to cut a hole in the backing plate to let the cooling air in near the center of the disc.
Seth, i know a guy at HPD. I will ask him if he's got an off-the-shelf solution. What year / platform is that car? My Honda-fu is weak.
Start with dryer duct aimed at center of rotor. I'll bet you a dollar that, plus bedding the next set according to manufacturer's instructions, will be enough.
I think we all know what the right answer is:
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