I would like to file a complaint RE: Knee Clearance

On tall cars, I can't seem to find a driving position that keeps my knees out of the dashboard. I'm pretty average sized (6'0, 180lb). This shouldn't be a problem. When I set my distance from the wheel/pedals to what I like, I find knees rubbing or very close to the dash below the wheel.

My wife's Vue was like this.
Her Odyssey is like this, possibly worse.

The Odyssey has more space that I can conceive everywhere but in front of my knees. How is it that I have more knee space in a NA Miata or in my DD Saturn? Are other people not running into this problem?

My Mustang is the same way. I'm fairly certain a frontal impact would destroy my right knee. I'm assuming that the larger lower dashes are a result of greater hvac/electronics packaging needs, but I'm surprised they don't come under more scrutiny for safety reasons.

It's not necessarily a lower dash, so much as a taller seat. A lot of the taller vehicles don't let the seats go down as far, giving you a more vertical reach to the pedals. So you end up sitting farther forward to reach them and you lose knee clearance.

As someone with short legs, it's not usually an issue for me. But there's one vehicle that sticks in my mind as having no knee clearance at all... The B8 S4. The clutch throw is so long that I had to move the seat forward quite a bit so I could get the clutch down all the way. And once I did that, I had to use my foot sideways on the brake pedal and my knee was still hitting the steering column a bit (couldn't get my foot on the pedal with toes pointing up at all due to the lack of knee clearance).

There I also torso length versus leg length and I guess you can toss in arm length as well. I have always felt that this is more of an issue than overall height. This I why you hear people saying that they are 6'4" and the fit in a Miata while the OP of a thread is saying they don't fit in a Miata.

This is a big issue with our Expedition. There's a little protrusion where the 4x4 selector knob is, and it's literally half an inch from my right knee. If we ever get into a front-end collision when I'm driving that thing, I'm going to need major reconstructive surgery afterward.

dean1484 wrote: There I also torso length versus leg length and I guess you can toss in arm length as well. I have always felt that this is more of an issue than overall height. This I why you hear people saying that they are 6'4" and the fit in a Miata while the OP of a thread is saying they don't fit in a Miata.

This is a big thing. I'm only 5'9" but even with the seat all the way down, I have to hunch slightly to fit in the Jeep with a helmet on due to a tall torso and low headroom (stupid sunroof!).

I am willing to bed the lack of knee room is on purpose, not to destroy your knees in an accident, but to keep people from submarining beneath the dashboard in a front end collision.

The lack of knee clearance to to prevent you from sliding and therefore being trapped under the dash in the event of a crash.

I don't think its a dimension related thing. I have very normal dimensions, and I've run into this issue in plenty of cars.

mad_machine wrote: I am willing to bed the lack of knee room is on purpose, not to destroy your knees in an accident, but to keep people from submarining beneath the dashboard in a front end collision.

Curious:

Is this only in the case the driver isn't wearing their seatbelt?
Why isn't this an issue on the passenger side?

FWIW, I work in Aircraft Seating. For all the complaints of no legroom/knee room on economy seats, even at a tight pitch they seem to have a E36 M3load more than modern tall cars do. Also, I've seen a whole lot of dynamic tests and haven't seen any dummies go under the seat in front of them - or anything remotely close.

So I'm between 5'10" and 6' depending on who is measuring, but I have a pretty long torso and short legs. But my legs are thick. I've found this problem too--there is no room to get under the steering wheel!

Oddly enough, I fit well (though snug) in my NB Miata. My MIL's Lexus RX, the seats do not go down far enough for me. I sit way too high in it to be comfortable.

ProDarwin wrote: Why isn't this an issue on the passenger side?

It's probably still an issue, but it's less of one for a couple of reasons:

No pedals on the passenger side, so passengers have more freedom to move / place their feet (drivers can't have their feet against the sloped area of the floor pan as the pedals are in the way, giving them less resistance to sliding forward).

Passenger side doesn't have a steering wheel for you to hit your face on if you slide down. Airbag to the face could still be an issue, but those deploy so fast it would likely be done before you slid very far.

I too experience this. 6'1" with 32" inseam, 250#.

It has been explained to me that it is a modern phenomenon that has to do with crash standards.

Keeping you close to the dash will guarantee that you hit it (and likely break a knee) but will keep you from exiting the vehicle and dying.
I bet crash standards will accept your injury in exchange for your death.

I can't drive a recent Civic without a pillow to put between my knee and the park brake handle.

JohnRW1621 wrote: I too experience this. 6'1" with 32" inseam, 250#. It has been explained to me that it is a modern phenomenon that has to do with crash standards. Keeping you close to the dash will guarantee that you hit it (and likely break a knee) but will keep you from exiting the vehicle and dying. I bet crash standards will accept your injury in exchange for your death.

Give me injury or give me death?

I recently had the knee/kick guard off of my 2005 Town & Country to do the heater core. Guess what's behind the plasticy-foamy guard? An airbag :)

You're unlikely to break your knee/leg in a frontal crash. Leg injury (including knee rotation) is one of the metrics we're evaluated on in crash tests.

Behind that panel is a collapsible steel stamping or aluminum honeycomb panel or structural plastic molding. It'll push on your leg with as close to a constant force as we can get to slow your body down.

Interestingly, the panel under the steering column in a non-airbagged NA Miata is light plastic, while it's a big steel plate on the airbag cars. There's obviously some sort of crash design going on there.

My Dodge Ram is like that. For such a rediculously massive vehicle, it is very cramped to drive. I thought perhaps the idea was that they don't want a body part to move and accelerate before hitting something. But if that is the case, it is only a concern for the driver. Everyone else in the truck has a lot of room.

Try comparing a recent Tacoma to a late 80's Toyota truck. The effective cab size is tiny by comparison.

Most newer cars have knee airbags down there. In a previous job, I had to package steering components around that bag, the fuse boxes, instrument panel, and hvac ducting. There isn't much room in there.

I have a 30" inseam and my knees would hit the column on my 2004 Explorer. S197 and S550 Mustangs are the same for me. I've never had an issue with the dash itself though.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Next time you break up a Miata, take that panel, secure it to the floor, and jump up and down on it. It'll be like a tiny springboard.

I guess I must be the designers person.

I don't seem to have a problem. when I adjust the seat for proper arm/hand position I find the leg/foot position to be good. Lucky me.

I have always said, "Sit in it first, see if it fits."

And I thought I was one of the few that had this problem. Every newer car I've driven has this issue. I'm 5'11", 31" inseam, 180lbs. Had this issue with my old RX8, my NB Miata isn't as bad as others, my new Tacoma the reach is on the long side to adjust for knee space, SWMBO's Sonata also this issue but not too badly. Every rental I've had. Know it has to do with crash protection but don't know which is worse, destroy my already bad knees or bounce down into the footwell. Aren't seat belts supposed to prevent this or at least not make it as bad?

chaparral wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Next time you break up a Miata, take that panel, secure it to the floor, and jump up and down on it. It'll be like a tiny springboard.

There's a gap between the steel plate and the plastic skin. It would be a little springy for sure. It's interesting that it's not viewed as necessary on the cars without airbags. It's also interesting to see how many changes there are in that area with the bags - different column, different combo switches and a bunch of knock-on effects from those.

This was a little weight savings trick from back in the day, swap in the non-airbagged knee panel. Now they're NLA.

My Expedition was a PITA with knee room. Then they put the light switch knob down there as well that I think I broke off 3/4 times getting in and out of the truck. Very poor design on fords part. But overall it was a good truck that had it not completely rusted out underneath I would still be driving.