Importing a Caterham 7 - does this even make sense?

I've had the hankering for a 7 (not a Locost) for a while now and am toying with the idea of essentially converting the money I'll hopefully get for my 911 over in the UK into a Caterham or a pre-lit Westfield[1] rather than sending the money to the US and converting it into another 911.

Pros of this approach seem to be:

• I have yet to see a running/driving Caterham in the US that is advertised for less than $25k. Most of the official ones appear to be going for $30k+, but of course they are a lot newer. If we work on the assumption that even an old Caterham should be worth between $20k-$25k, it'll basically leave me with a couple of grand of instant equity if bought well.
• Obviously the choice over here (I am in the UK at the moment) I much bigger than in the US, but the ones over 25 years old are thin on the ground over here, too. Importing anything newer if it's not in bits is going to be a mare, so it has to be over 25 years old.

Cons:

• It's RHD (doesn't bother me, but will hit the resale value most likely), plus it's a kit car that's close to 30 years old
• The usual insurance nightmare, chances are that Hagerty will insure it but none of the mainstream insurers will as it'll end up with a non-US market vehicle branded title. I don't think that's too much of a problem given that it's not exactly a commuter vehicle.
• The usual parts supply problems as I may well have to order even consumables from the UK.
• Shipping might be an issue - I'd have to ship it RoRo because I have no way of getting it out of a container at my end (plus container is going to be too expensive) which means that parts like the weather gear might go walkies as there is no way to secure them to the car.
• Of course the overall con compared to a 911 is that it really only works as a track car and for fairly short trips. Even for a trip down to Laguna Seca I'd likely be left shaken, not stirred.

What does the panel think?

There's a classic car dealer close to where I am at the moment who has an '86 in stock, I'm probably going to buzz over there today and have a look as I need to check if I even fit the things properly...

[1] Those were the ones that were essentially exact copies of the Caterham/Lotus 7, to the extent that you could take parts off one and bolt them to the other. Unsurprisingly, Westfield got sued and lost, having to change the design somewhat. Hence the term "pre-lit".

This is the car in question, by the way:

http://www.classiccar.co.uk/caterham/seven/caterham-super-seven-lotus-twin-cam_19290/?back=caterham%2F

Well I see your logic, but for that kind of money - if you're thinking about it from both a fun and investment perspective - an Elise will be much more of a "sure thing".

If you want a Seven without the hassle of building it from scratch, I think a Miata-powered Westfield through FM will be far more user-friendly, and be easier to sell when the time comes. I don't think you'll lose much money, but I'd be surprised if you made any either.

Are you looking for a true Seven for the purpose of making parts availability easier? If so, I don't think you're gaining anything over a vastly cheaper Locost.

For that money I'd look at an Elise as petegossett said. Otherwise save $15k and get a Locost - I've seen them going for $10k-$15k freshly built.

I'm lucky enough to have an Elise and a 1965 Lotus Super Seven. Totally different cars, both extremely fun in their own special ways, but different, so if you've got a "hankering for a 7," stick with a 7.

I think you're right to get a Caterham (or a Lotus) over a Locost. I looked for quite awhile and even the well-done Locosts would be work to support later on--where did the parts come from etc.. And if you're thinking about resale (looks like you are), a name brand will keep value. One other brand I'd consider is Birkin. I don't know their status anymore, but they put out some nice stuff.

I wouldn't worry about RHD--in some ways I think people will pay more for it in the states for the novelty (we've converted customer cars to RHD, and have several RHD Mini customers who sought out RHD, for example). I would worry about a 1984 car. I don't know much about importing, but my understanding is pre-1973 is easy, post 1973 is hard.

I'd also recommend talking to Hayes Harris at wirewheel.com. He sells a lot of Sevens and clones and may know of something in the states that you're not seeing. Then you don't have to hassle with the import.

Good luck!

Carl www.eclecticmotorworks.com

I'm in the exact same boat as you.
I have an airplane I'm selling and I have a very nice '69 MGB that's gathering dust.
I'd like a Seven.
In fact, I noticed that exact same car that you linked before you mentioned it here.
I'd like a "real" Caterham. A basic pushrod 1600 with simple, live axle would be fine. I'll be interested to hear how you make out.

Factor shipping into the decision of how much you might save.

I have friends who are Caterham dealers on the east coast. Do you want me to see what's available?

IIRC a Caterham will give you much more issues with support and finding parts than a Locost. Sure you can find parts, but at what price and will they be over here.

The builders of a Locost can tell you exactly what parts are needed, they built it! Plus the parts are more likely to be able to be found at your local auto parts store.

Engines are more likely to be something with a broader power band and probably more power.

Plus Locosts have typically addressed the short comings of the Birkins & Caterhams. You probably have room for your feet and your seat in a Locost. You'd also have more luck getting one that meets U.S. standards for HPDEs and maybe even wheel to wheel.

FYI, I'd let my Silvertop 4AGE/Alfa Romeo based Locost go for well under $10k US. Totally street legal. It just doesn't work with the family lifestyle and is mostly just in my way in the garage. Given the cost and total headache of getting anything vaguely resembling a car through customs, I would suggest you go with that approach IMO.

It makes perfect sense to import a Caterham. They do hold more value than any of the other brands and they never depreciate. There are a lot of Caterham-specific parts on them, but you can fairly easily identify what they are. A Caterham is going to be more valuable than a pre-lit Westie, I suspect. The latter would be similar to Birkin in value. The Birkins are also a pretty close copy of the Lotus Series 3, but I think they're running IRS now.

I don't thinking RHD would be a big deal. Heck, the British nature of it would appeal to a lot of potential Cat owners. I've driven a RHD Lotus 7 and the cars are so narrow you can't tel the difference!

Huge difference between buying a Locost and a Caterham. The former vary widely in the competence of the builder, the choice of components and the end result. Some are very well done, others are a little scary. Only the builder of the car can tell you what parts the car needs, so there's going to be automotive archaeology involved on a regular basis. I have a decent Locost in my garage, but I still envy Caterhams. Not necessarily for speed around our track, but in general finish and overall engineering.

Once the car is imported, there is no branding of the title - at least, not in Colorado. My UK-sourced Mini and Canada-sourced Land Rover have the exact same types of title as every other car. CO isn't one of the super-lax states when it comes to titles, either. Importing an older car really isn't that big a deal. Anything over 25 years old is easy when it comes to the NHSTA, but do check emissions regs in your area. The reason Carl things post-1973 cars are difficult is probably due to smog laws in his area. Most states have special rules for kit cars but it's hard to say how the Cat would be listed if it were brought in as a complete, titled car.

I guess maybe I just don't appreciate the value but I don't see how paying almost 18k for the linked car before shipping/registration/any sort of import taxes etc is going to hold its value

aeronca65t wrote: I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have an airplane I'm selling and I have a very nice '69 MGB that's gathering dust. I'd like a Seven. In fact, I noticed that exact same car that you linked before you mentioned it here.

This one appears to have been sold - I called the dealer and he didn't seem to have much of a recall of the car and mumbled something about "old ad".

The dealer promised to call me back as soon as he could look into it but it's crickets so far. Pity, they're about 20 miles away from where I am right now.

aeronca65t wrote: I'd like a "real" Caterham. A basic pushrod 1600 with simple, live axle would be fine. I'll be interested to hear how you make out.

I haven't really made up my mind yet on this, I am sorely tempted but I'd have to talk it through with the wife anyway.

I have driven a pre-lit Westfield before and it was a ton of fun. I didn't buy it though as it has been messed about too much for my taste.

Duke wrote: Factor shipping into the decision of how much you might save.

I've already talked to the company how shipped my bikes and belongings a couple of years ago - they reckon it's going to be about a grand (UK, so about 1600-1700 bucks) for RoRo. Containering is out of the question as I don't have access to a loading dock, plus it would be about 4-5 times the cost of RoRo.

Duke wrote: I have friends who are Caterham dealers on the east coast. Do you want me to see what's available?

Why not, although I suspect that they're out of my budget given the Caterham prices I've seen so far.

Keith Tanner wrote: It makes perfect sense to import a Caterham. They do hold more value than any of the other brands and they never depreciate. There are a lot of Caterham-specific parts on them, but you can fairly easily identify what they are. A Caterham is going to be more valuable than a pre-lit Westie, I suspect.

Westies are a lot cheaper over here - I've seen decent pre-lits for 5000-6000, a decent mid-eighties Caterham will run at at least 10k. A in pounds, obviously.

Keith Tanner wrote: I don't thinking RHD would be a big deal. Heck, the British nature of it would appeal to a lot of potential Cat owners. I've driven a RHD Lotus 7 and the cars are so narrow you can't tel the difference!

That's good to hear that several people like Carl and yourself think it wouldn't be a big deal. I know it wouldn't be for me (I've driven plenty of RHD cars on the "wrong side" of the road) but it's good to know that it's unlikely to turn off people completely.

Keith Tanner wrote: Huge difference between buying a Locost and a Caterham. The former vary widely in the competence of the builder, the choice of components and the end result. Some are very well done, others are a little scary. Only the builder of the car can tell you what parts the car needs, so there's going to be automotive archaeology involved on a regular basis. I have a decent Locost in my garage, but I still envy Caterhams. Not necessarily for speed around our track, but in general finish and overall engineering.

That sums up my thinking, mostly. It's also the "original".

Keith Tanner wrote: Once the car is imported, there is no branding of the title - at least, not in Colorado. My UK-sourced Mini and Canada-sourced Land Rover have the exact same types of title as every other car. CO isn't one of the super-lax states when it comes to titles, either. Importing an older car really isn't that big a deal. Anything over 25 years old is easy when it comes to the NHSTA, but do check emissions regs in your area. The reason Carl things post-1973 cars are difficult is probably due to smog laws in his area. Most states have special rules for kit cars but it's hard to say how the Cat would be listed if it were brought in as a complete, titled car.

Well, I have emissions covered in the sense that the area we live in in NV doesn't require emissions testing. Plus, worst case I could register the car as a classic and keep miles below 2500 to bypass the emissions requirements.

The bikes I imported ended up with branded NV titles - well, the one I registered so far did - so I am assuming that any imported car will, too. It's not a big deal apart from the insurance issue that seems to come with it.

The import process doesn't overly bother me - already been through it with the bikes and for the old stuff it's easy - but I want to make sure that if I go further with this I'm not going to lose my shirt on the car, either. I'm not trying to make money on it, just trying to avoid losing too much.

Jaynen wrote: I guess maybe I just don't appreciate the value but I don't see how paying almost 18k for the linked car before shipping/registration/any sort of import taxes etc is going to hold its value

Have a look at the sort of prices that Caterhams go for. The "official" ones are $30k+ cars. Used, obviously.

Carl Heideman wrote: I'm lucky enough to have an Elise and a 1965 Lotus Super Seven. Totally different cars, both extremely fun in their own special ways, but different, so if you've got a "hankering for a 7," stick with a 7.

Well, I have owned an S1 Elise in the UK. They fun cars, but as you said, they are really an entirely different category of car.

Carl Heideman wrote: I think you're right to get a Caterham (or a Lotus) over a Locost. I looked for quite awhile and even the well-done Locosts would be work to support later on--where did the parts come from etc.. And if you're thinking about resale (looks like you are), a name brand will keep value. One other brand I'd consider is Birkin. I don't know their status anymore, but they put out some nice stuff.

The reason I'm thinking about resale value is that I have to be realistic and work on the assumption that it's a toy car people keep for a few years until they're fed up with it. Plus like almost everybody on this board, I have automotive ADD .

Carl Heideman wrote: I'd also recommend talking to Hayes Harris at wirewheel.com. He sells a lot of Sevens and clones and may know of something in the states that you're not seeing. Then you don't have to hassle with the import. Good luck! Carl www.eclecticmotorworks.com

Talking to Hayes sounds like a good idea, given that I'm not in too much of a hurry to buy another car anyway.

My "secret weapon" is that I have a few friends over here who are utter petrolheads and would probably be willing to check out a car for me if it's close enough to them. I certainly wouldn't want to buy a kit car sight unseen.