Is a K24 swap the ultimate upgrade for the Honda S2000?

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How to dominate Gridlife GLTC?

For the team at ASM, the answer is a simple combination of a Honda S2000, a K24 swap and some expert driving.

Presented by CRC Industries.

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When I drive my '12 Accord coupe (K24/5MT) after having driven my '07 Focus sedan (2.0/5MT) or '04 Outback wagon (2.5/5MT) it amazes me every time how usable the entire rev range is with the K24. When puttering around town I can take off in 2nd and it has enough off-idle torque to make it effortless. And the gears are notoriously tall in this generation of Accord. The Focus doesn't like 2nd gear starts as much and the Outback takes a lot of extra feathering of the clutch. And it also happily and eagerly revs all the way to 7,000 rpm, all while returning incredible fuel economy. 

I'm not a Honda Fanboi but, I am definitely a K24 Fanboi. They hit it out of the park when they designed that engine.

The_Jed said:

When I drive my '12 Accord coupe (K24/5MT) after having driven my '07 Focus sedan (2.0/5MT) or '04 Outback wagon (2.5/5MT) it amazes me every time how usable the entire rev range is with the K24. When puttering around town I can take off in 2nd and it has enough off-idle torque to make it effortless. And the gears are notoriously tall in this generation of Accord. The Focus doesn't like 2nd gear starts as much and the Outback takes a lot of extra feathering of the clutch. And it also happily and eagerly revs all the way to 7,000 rpm, all while returning incredible fuel economy. 

I'm not a Honda Fanboi but, I am definitely a K24 Fanboi. They hit it out of the park when they designed that engine.

Thats the same experience I have with my dad's 05 manual Accord. Still surprised how tall the gearing is on it. That five speed bolted to a TSX would probably redline 2nd gear at 75 to 80 mph haha

The S2000 is a good car with a torqueless wonder under the hood. Give me a 1k lower redline and more torque and I may actually like driving it.

K-swap the world.

Well the K20/24 is way cheaper than the F20/22C so... Yes it's better?

I don't think I can sell my 8th gen Si sedan ever. Love the K20.

preach (dudeist priest) said:

K-swap the world.

That and #TE37allthings and you’re set. 

preach (dudeist priest) said:

K-swap the world.

If you can't K-swap it, LS-swap it. If you can't LS-swap it, K-swap it. If you can't do either of those, scrap it. 

buzzboy said:

The S2000 is a good car with a torqueless wonder under the hood. Give me a 1k lower redline and more torque and I may actually like driving it.

S2000 actually makes more low end torque than a Subaru 2.5, and in the midrange is amazingly close given that it is only 80% the displacement.

And then it keeps going   And then goes ballistic when it switches to the high RPM lobes.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You messed up. There is no way that's the torque curve comparison between an F-series engine and an EJ25. Horsepower? Yes. Torque? No.

In reply to Dootz :

But if it's making more hp at x rpm, then it is also making more torque at x rpm.

I was driving my E36 which weighs 3000lbs and makes 240 ft*lbs. Drove my friends AP1 which weighs 2750 and makes 167 ft*lbs. Both rated at the same horsepower. Which feels torquier?

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :

At those RPMs, it's just making more RPM with the same torque.

Dootz said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You messed up. There is no way that's the torque curve comparison between an F-series engine and an EJ25. Horsepower? Yes. Torque? No.

If two engines make the same horsepower at a given RPM, they make the same torque too.   They are mathematically linked - power, torque, and RPM are literally the only three variables in the equation, if two are the same then the third is the same.

buzzboy said:

I was driving my E36 which weighs 3000lbs and makes 240 ft*lbs. Drove my friends AP1 which weighs 2750 and makes 167 ft*lbs. Both rated at the same horsepower. Which feels torquier?

An interesting way to think about the term "horsepower" is that, because it takes RPM into account, it ends up being a shorthand for torque at the wheels, which is all that matters.  An engine that makes the same power at half the RPM would also need gearing twice as tall for the same speed, so the torque at the wheels ends up being identical.

So it isn't a question of the engine, but of being in the wrong gear...

Exactly, the S2k needs to be in a lower gear to make it feel as fast as the BMW. The final drive in 1st gear in the AP1 is 14.46 while my BMW was 15.66. More torque and a deeper 1st gear. Feels way faster.

In reply to buzzboy :

In that case the S2000 was always in the wrong gear 

So many gearing sins have been made in order to make a good 0-60 time vs. what is best for overall acceleration.  A lot of cars have a way too large 1-2 ratio drop to feel nice at low speeds, no matter what the engine powerband width is, so they can have a good launch and still carry 2nd gear past 60mph.  I have yet to drive an S2000 in anger (am taking open applications though!)  but the numbers suggest that Honda went for a taller 1st to keep the 1-2 drop minimal.  Conversely, German cars are notorious for having an extra short 1st gear for whatever German reasons they have, was told it was to minimize clutch slip when idling around in traffic...

Also taking applications for M3 sampling 

E36 M3s have a 4.20 first gear and no overdrive then they usually come with a high diff ratio. Mine came swapped with the ridiculous 3.73 from a non-M e30

The ratio spread of the AP1 looks pretty nice. 3.31 first gear but with a 1.16 reduction gear and 4.10 final drive.

I can't speak for the F20, but a fully tuned K24 makes about as much power as a tuned F22C. Hardly what I would call "ultimate". The K24 has a substantial low/mid range torque advantage and would likely be a bit more fun on the street, but at rolling speeds, they're nearly identical. 
 

I own an AP2 S2000 and have considered this swap in the past, but I can't justify the $6000-$10,000 cost for similar power and more mid-range. Not worth it for the money. 
 

Although it does make sense in some cases: if you blow an engine, used F22C motors go for $5000-$6000 on eBay. With their scarcity and ever-increasing prices, a K24 swap starts to make sense. Same if you're running in a competitive series where blown engines are an eventuality- the upfront costs are worth it for the ability to source new/used K series motors for dirt cheap. 
 

For a weekend driven street car with a healthy F22C, I'll pass. But if my motor ever blew, there's a solid chance I would eat the initial upfront cost and swap in a K24. 

David S. Wallens said:

preach (dudeist priest) said:

K-swap the world.

That and #TE37allthings and you’re set. 

I need to find a set of TE37s in 4x108 for my Sunbeam. Then it'll be #KSwapTheWorld and #TE37AllThings - The two best hashtags to be. 

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :

If your premise is correct, the torque curve would not fall off at high rpm at higher rates than horsepower. 

I think an LS3 would be better, but there are class rules.

preach (dudeist priest) said:

K-swap the world.

I'm beginning to think the K-series motors are pretty much the ultimate upgrade for anything that doesn't come stock with 300-400hp or more.  

Msterbee said:

I'm beginning to think the K-series motors are pretty much the ultimate upgrade for anything that doesn't come stock with 300-400hp or more.  

Anything with less than 200, yes.  If it's already mid-200s you're getting pretty much the same power and while that may make sense in some circumstances (like an expensive blown up F-series motor), it's a lot less obvious that this is a win.

You've misunderstood my premise.  Consider x in the algebraic sense.  
eg: The only way to make more hp at 5000 rpm is to make more tq at 5000rpm.  

DaleCarter said:

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :

If your premise is correct, the torque curve would not fall off at high rpm at higher rates than horsepower. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Boosting them up to 400-500hp reliably seems to require little additional prep beyond the boosting hardware.  In that range you likely get a significant weight savings. At lower horsepower levels you likely gain reliability and parts availability in the motorsports world.