Is it time to say goodbye to the manual transmission?

Before you comment about how young people like me are too lazy to drive a manual transmission, hear me out. So far, the only vehicle I’ve owned with an automatic is my current daily driver, a Nissan Frontier, and I really miss rowing through the gears in my old GTI.

But I think we’ve …

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No. I mean only if you want mass depression and soulless commuting devices. 

Never, when those fancy electron and software powered devices get old and crusty they will become spectacular boat anchors.  A box of gears and a dry clutch will just need a little love to make it another 100k.

Not to mention how they really help to depreciate an older classic.  Who is lining up to buy a ten to fifteen year old DSG vs Manual trans car?  I won't even look at them.

Are they faster and better out of the box, yes, can I afford to keep up, no.  That is a me problem YMMV.  

TLDR: DSG's and the like are better than manuals, but only available on a select few vehicles.

For me, there are times I prefer a manual and times where an automatic makes sense.  A cheap little econobox or something sporty, I'd prefer a manual.  A luxury sedan or a truck, automatic all the way.

Why?  I just feel more connected to the car with a manual and believe I can make better decisions on the right gear than the car can.  I'll admit it's probably not true, and it's totally just my perception.

Do I think manuals will eventually go away?  It's possible as the technology improves and becomes cheaper.  In the early days of paddle shift, lap times were often shown to be faster in a paddle shift instead of a manual.  So, the proof is there that a good paddle shift/automatic transmission will beat a manual every time.  The challenge then (and still today in some ways) is that a paddle shift automatic like that is a high end car option. Sure, a Nissan Versa may have paddle shifters or slap stick, but they don't perform nearly as well as a DSG, or even as well as a manual does. 

If/when the same technology and performance in your DSG is available on pretty much anything, I could see manuals going away.  I don't see that happening, however, as manufacturers are moving towards CVT's instead of "normal" gears.  (Ignoring the fact that the market doesn't buy manual transmission cars anymore, so there's a smaller incentive to even make them)

-Rob

What an incendiary headline. 

The answer is No and whatever anyone else says as a counter is wrong. 

CVTs are terrible. 10 speeds are meh. DCTs are a good in between but nothing will ever replace the driving experience with a proper manual. I get that some manual boxes are dog doo doo but,  have you ever driven a buttery smooth Honda 6-speed in anger? Such an amazing experience. It sure as hell beats clicking a paddle on the back of the steering wheel. 

Since I'm also a youngin, I'll weigh in with my 2 cents.

• Are manuals really fun to drive? Yes.
• Does a manual offer a unique driving experience? Yes.
• Do I want to daily drive a car with a manual? Absolutely no.

In all the years I've been driving, there have only been a handful of times where I thought to myself "This would be a better experience if the car I was driving had a manual transmission."

EDIT: It's definitely "weigh" and "way" in this instance. That's what I get for writing in a hurry.

Bringing this over from the other thread...

In our other thread on manuals, I talk about this "driver involvement" crap. If that's all it takes to be a driver or get enjoyment out of a car, put a shifter and clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and get all the driver involvement/enjoyment you want, since that's all that equals "driving" to you. Oh, there's more to it than that? My point exactly. In fact, I'd posit that steering, braking, and accelerating are MORE important to the control/enjoyment of a car than a manual transmission. Go out to your car (and I'll let you start it up). Don't touch any control except the clutch and gear lever (not the steering wheel, not the brake pedal, not the accelerator pedal) and see how far down the road you get.

Manual transmissions were a mechanically necessary part of making a car move. ICE engines need to have multiple gear ratios in order to accelerate and cruise, by staying in the powerband. But they WILL stall at a stop in gear and not be able to accelerate FROM a stop unless you allow a way to decouple the engine from the transmission, and allow slippage to get moving. So you need a clutch (or torque converter in an automatic). Electric motors need none of that. They don't "idle." They don't "stall." You can come to a stop in gear and accelerate from a stop without slipping anything. Adding a manual transmission to an EV is the height of stupid engineering just to keep some clueless "enthusiasts" placated. And FAKING a manual trans is even worse (looking at you, Toyota).

But manual transmissions were not the only thing necessary to make early ICE vehicles move. You needed manual cranking to get the engine started, manual spark advance/retard to start, then run it, manual chokes to make the carb work right, etc. Why aren't you demanding all that in a car these days? Why get stuck on that shifter as the ONE thing that defines driving and enjoyment to you? I'm getting so tired of closed minded "enthusiasts" who won't give a car a chance, especially something like (the GTI EV), because of some primitive hang-up.

These are massive fun and don't have shifters at all...

oooh and they are EVs, too...

In reply to Colin Wood :

*weigh* 

I have not NOT had a manual trans daily since..... um..... 1998? That was only because 9C1's were only offered in auto (700R4). Since then it's been a slew of 3 pedal cars and I would have it no other way.  

Colin Wood said:

Since I'm also a youngin, I'll way in with my 2 cents.

• Are manuals really fun to drive? Yes.
• Does a manual offer a unique driving experience? Yes.
• Do I want to daily drive a car with a manual? Absolutely no.

In all the years I've been driving, there have only been a handful of times where I thought to myself "This would be a better experience if the car I was driving had a manual transmission."

Almost every car I've ever driven, I could argue the point on how it would be infinitely better with a manual. Especially rental beaters. 

I do agree that manual transmissions are in a lot of cases more fun than an automatic. My first car was a Chevy Cavalier with a manual. If that car had an automatic it would have been super boring to drive. With the manual it was fun, well as much fun as a completely stock Cavalier could be. 

But from a performance standpoint new automatics and dual clutch autos, but not CVTs, are hard to argue against, just look at the lap times from our testing at the FIRM. 

However if you gave me the keys to a Miata with a manual and the same car with an automatic to drive I would have a hard time not picking the manual transmission for pure fun factor. 

In reply to ChrisTropea :

Not just fun factor but longevity as well. The Forte GT comes with the 7-spd DCT. It's faster. But it's more fragile, which is the case in a lot of these. Manual transmissions are rarely fragile (except Subaru... we're lookign at you WRX) and will hold up for hundreds of thousands of miles with a simple fluid change every few years. Show me an auto that you can replace 2.5 qyarts of fluid once every 100k and it lasts for 300k miles. I am sure there are a few examples but they are the exception and not the rule. 

Is this a serious article with a serious question, or are you just trolling us?  I have 10 cars and not a single one of them has an automatic transmission.  And I vote with my wallet--the manual transmission is why I tow my race cars with a Tacoma instead of a Tundra.

I have never once been driving a manual transmission and thought, "things would be better if this car was an automatic."

I don't get the DCT thing, either.  Maybe there are versions of them that don't make stupid decisions, but even the Porsche PDK in the Macan made choices for me I didn't want in "manual' mode.  The big one for me is if I know the car has enough power to crest a hill at wide open throttle, why do I have to suffer an unnecessary kickdown downshift just because I put my foot in it?

Sure, a DCT shifts "faster", but if I wanted "faster" I don't think my daily driver would be a Miata.

I suspect that as electric takes over and cars simply don't have transmissions that the percentage of novelty piston-powered cars sold with manual transmissions actually increases and that manuals last as long as the ICE.

bobzilla said:

In reply to ChrisTropea :

Not just fun factor but longevity as well. The Forte GT comes with the 7-spd DCT. It's faster. But it's more fragile, which is the case in a lot of these. Manual transmissions are rarely fragile (except Subaru... we're lookign at you WRX) and will hold up for hundreds of thousands of miles with a simple fluid change every few years. Show me an auto that you can replace 2.5 qyarts of fluid once every 100k and it lasts for 300k miles. I am sure there are a few examples but they are the exception and not the rule. 

Just had to replace the clutch and dual mass flywheel in my JCW MINI. A wear item. I don't have the ability to put it up on a lift, remove the subframe and suspension to drop the trans and get to the clutch and flywheel. So a $5k bill at a good indy shop.

My '01 740i Sport had 178k on it when I sold it and still had the lifetime fluid in the trans. 20 years old at that point.

I mean, I just ordered a new car last year specifically with a manual. But for the masses, yes. 

But I realize the GRM way is to never buy anything new, then complain that manufacturers don't make anything I want. Which is why we are down to 2 sub $35k, sporty vehicles available with a manual. Miata and the Twins, sure you could count that as 3. But they are the same sans the front bumper. 

BTW, since my first new car in '96, up until my EVs, all my new cars have been specc'd with a manual. My weekend car is a manual trans JCW Roadster. Been autocrossing and hitting track days with manual sports cars for decades.

But out of the 130 cars I've had, at least half were automatics. My tow pig 2500 Suburban 8.1 liter is an automatic and I won't tow with a manual for a number of reasons (backing up a hill with a 9400 lb trailer in a campsite on gravel is just one). My BMW E38s were autos and absolutely stellar cars to drive. Same with my Jaguar XJs. I'm a car enthusiast. I like manuals in the right application, autos in the right application and EVs with no shifting. But most of the "reasoning" that manual nazis use are specious at best...

When the forum is at an unprecedented level of grumpiness and threads are getting locked at a higher than normal rate, Maybe, just maybe it isn't the time for a clickbait style, make people angry before they even read it article to be posted here.

Just a thought

In reply to z31maniac :

You're missing the Forte GT and Civic Si. Both sporty and both offered with turbos and manuals for under $35k (civic $30,195 and the Forte GT $26,200)

EDIT: Apparently the Elantra N also falls under that $35k category at $34,015

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to ChrisTropea :

Not just fun factor but longevity as well. The Forte GT comes with the 7-spd DCT. It's faster. But it's more fragile, which is the case in a lot of these. Manual transmissions are rarely fragile (except Subaru... we're lookign at you WRX) and will hold up for hundreds of thousands of miles with a simple fluid change every few years. Show me an auto that you can replace 2.5 qyarts of fluid once every 100k and it lasts for 300k miles. I am sure there are a few examples but they are the exception and not the rule. 

Just had to replace the clutch and dual mass flywheel in my JCW MINI. A wear item. I don't have the ability to put it up on a lift, remove the subframe and suspension to drop the trans and get to the clutch and flywheel. So a $5k bill at a good indy shop.

My '01 740i Sport had 178k on it when I sold it and still had the lifetime fluid in the trans. 20 years old at that point.

Again, exception not the rule. 

The only times I prefer an auto over a manual is when I'm stuck in stop and go traffic ,or driving something that's a total bore (my truck, for example). Otherwise I've driven sticks forever and will try to continue doing so, although small, stick shift cars are quickly disappearing.

I'm with Chris V. I personally don't get this slavish devotion to the idea that a manual gearbox is apparently the sole defining feature of 'driving enjoyment'.

In terms of making a car 'fun to drive' I don't think it's even on the list.  For me it's something more like:

1. Steering feel/communication
2. Chassis control (not dynamics, but how the car moves as you drive it around)
3. Chassis dynamics: how well the car actually handles

The next few can be affected and improved by a manual, but a manual isn't the only way to do it.

4. Throttle control
5. Power delivery
6. How much power

Then a last few I can think of are driver oriented ones

7. General driving ergonomics
8. Driver position

To use a couple of examples;

Karts are fun because they:

1. Have amazing steering - the wheels are connected directly to the steering wheel by 12 inches of metal.
2. Have amazing chassis control - no roll or flopping around or anything
3. Have amazing handling - They turn, brake, and hold on enough to physically  beat you up.
4. Throttle control can be kinda lousy depending on just how bad the centrifugal clutch is.  It can be improved with a manual (make it a shifter kart) OR by making it electric.
5. Karts ALWAYS put down the power to the ground.
6. How much power they have depends on the kart you're running.  Ranges from pretty slow to mind meltingly fast.
7. You literally wear a properly sized kart
8. You sit down in it like a formula car.

I like my Prelude because:

1. It has sublime steering.  It almost feels like it starts to react as soon as you think about what you want to do.
2. Chassis control is lacking. Anything above moderate prodding and it flops around like a fish out of water.
3. But the chassis dynamics are still great.  It'll do whatever I ask of it.
4. It does have sharp throttle response because it's a manual.  And in 1999 that was the only way to get that.  A Honda 4 speed automatic in 1999 definitely did NOT.
5. It puts it's power down pretty well for a FWD car.
6. It's not particularly powerful, but it's in the 200 hp sweet spot.
7. All the controls are placed just right.
8. You sit down pretty low in it like a proper sports car.

Yet another clickbait 'article'...  GRM, you're better than this.  

In reply to BA5 :

Straw man. No one here is saying a manual is the ONLY thing that makes a car sporty/sporting. You're making up arguments that don't exist.

You guys know as well as all of us that there are generally two pretty defined camps on this one, and that the opinions involved have already been rehashed here ad nauseum. Why are we doing it again?

bobzilla said:

In reply to BA5 :

Straw man. No one here is saying a manual is the ONLY thing that makes a car sporty/sporting. You're making up arguments that don't exist.

No strawman. This forum has been FULL of people saying directly that "in an automatic car you're just a passenger." "Automatic cars are for non drivers," and "manuals are the only way of getting driving enjoyment," as the same car with an automatic/DSG supposedly doesn't provide that. Even YOU said a car with an automatic is just a "soulless commuting device." Getting so tired of that sort of insulting, closed minded bullE36 M3.

DirtyBird222 said:

What an incendiary headline.  

Rodan said:

Yet another clickbait 'article'...  GRM, you're better than this.  

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