A friend is coming to my.next race and he asked about what race radios I have.
I've never used radios in a car.
It sounds like it could be fun but franky I would spend a lot of money on it.
This got me thinking that perhaps I should consult the wisdom of the hive.
Anyone out there coble together a basic budget communication system?
Tom1200 said:A friend is coming to my.next race and he asked about what race radios I have.
I've never used radios in a car.
It sounds like it could be fun but franky I would spend a lot of money on it.
This got me thinking that perhaps I should consult the wisdom of the hive.
Anyone out there coble together a basic budget communication system?
What do you want to do about licensing? As I see it, there are three options:
- Transmit unlicensed but legally. This means using something like FRS radios and the performance on these suck. It'll probably work to talk to the pits when you're on the front straight, but you're likely to lose it on the far side of the track.
- Transmit with more power, but no license. This is illegal and risks fines from the FCC if you get caught. Lots of people do it, but not what I'd recommend personally.
- Transmit with more power and a license. This basically means going through one of the race-oriented radio sellers like Sampson or Racing Radios. I have a system from Racing Radios, it works very well but it is probably not what you'd consider "budget". Figure $2K for a basic setup (1 mobile radio in the car with PTT switch and helmet kit, 1 portable radio with a headset for the pits). That's for Motorola business band radios and being signed onto Racing Radios' license so that it's all legal.
It might be possible to get a vendor to give you a license using a radio that's less expensive than a Motorola, but that leads into the next question -- what are you going to do with the radios and how important is it that they work reliably? Motorola is the industry standard for a reason and IMHO reliability is very important. You really don't want to be trying to troubleshoot the radios in the middle of a 6 hour enduro.
Aside from enduros, I have also used my radios for coaching and for test days where we're doing setup changes in the pits and immediately going back out on track.
I've heard of people using Discord for "driver chat" on tracks with good cell coverage.
The UV-5r radios are ok-ish, but fall into Codrus's second bucket of more power but not legal (in this use). Highly unlikely you'll be caught but you should do the homework and figure out the least illegal frequencies to use.
The biggest advantage of the UV-5r IMO isn't power per se but the ability to use external antennas. The engine vs suspension argument works in radio, too: all the power in the world isn't useful if you can't get the signal out and can't hear what's being sent to you.
There is a legal way to cheap: GMRS or MURS band radios: https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=36642
No license for MURS, simple license for GMRS. Standardized frequencies, so no programming and no risk of broadcasting where you're not supposed to. Both allow external antennas.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
As tone doesn't come through on the internet, I maybe mistaking yours but I wasn't suggesting anything illegal in my question.
My original thought is perhaps someone managed to make cheap cell phone based set up or the like work.
I've never used radios and given the level I run the car at they really aren't much benefit other them giving a friend a way to be more involved.
Give your buddy a stopwatch and a pit board. Though if he gets bored he may start putting up obscene messages.
In reply to j_tso :
I could see the messages motivating me.
Tom1200 said:As tone doesn't come through on the internet, I maybe mistaking yours but I wasn't suggesting anything illegal in my question.
My original thought is perhaps someone managed to make cheap cell phone based set up or the like work.
I've never used radios and given the level I run the car at they really aren't much benefit other them giving a friend a way to be more involved.
I was not intending to imply that you were, sorry if it came across this way.
Basically just be aware that the second option exists and that if you ask around (especially in some of the low buck enduro racing series) you will find people who either don't know or don't care that their budget Chinese radios (Baofeng is a common brand) don't conform to FCC regs. I know folks who use them and while I don't judge them for it, that solution doesn't line up with my personal cost/benefit analysis.
I don't know of anyone using cell phones. You want something where the receiver is always running but the transmitter only comes up when you push the PTT button, and that's not really what cell phones are built to do. Theoretically you could probably hack up something with a bluetooth headset inside the helmet, a call that's left up for the entire race, and some hacked-up reverse mute button (that is, it's muted unless you press the button) on the steering wheel. I suspect you'd run into problems with the phone overheating, and if the call happens to drop in the middle of the race then getting it back up while driving seems like a PITA. Not to mention bluetooth is not the most reliable protocol and you could easily lose the connection to the headset as well.
IMHO, electronics in race cars need to be stupid simple. They should be powered by the car, turn on automatically when the car turns on, turn off automatically when the car turns off, and generally require as little manual fiddling as possible. Cell phones just aren't designed to work that way.
Do you ever race with SCCA or NASA? I'm happy to show you the system in my car if we're ever at the same event.
(edit: The old Nextel iDEN phones actually WERE built to have a PTT service run over cell phone frequencies with user-defined talk groups, but AFAIK that service is dead now)
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
I figured it was the way I was reading it but I appreciate you talking about it.
I strictly do vintage races these days otherwise I'd love to check out your system.
I agree about makingelectronics stupid simple.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:I don't know of anyone using cell phones. You want something where the receiver is always running but the transmitter only comes up when you push the PTT button, and that's not really what cell phones are built to do.
[...]
IMHO, electronics in race cars need to be stupid simple.
As mentioned one could use something like Discord or another app to have a voice chat open, using data rather than a voice call, but yeah - fiddly. Simple FTW.
There's nothing FCC non compliant about a Chinese radio. They just are not complaint to FCC guidance for a FMRS/GMRS bubble pack application. You just have a HAM radio and all the responsibility that comes with it.
If you're going to the traditional radio route consider getting your HAM radio technicians license. It really doesn't take that long to study up and the test is only $15 to sit for. You'll also get to meet local radio enthusiasts that can help you. After studying for the test you'll know what frequencies you can transmit on, which will cause problems, and you can do it legally.
I use the Baofengs, no repeaters or anything like that, never had an issue with performance. One time racing at NJMP we could still hear our driver while we were in town getting grinders.
use your work phone and open up a ms teams meeting and have the team join and leave it on
the current software can do real good background canceling, you cant even hear my screaming toddler banging on the doors for the web meetings I'm in constantly.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Tom1200 said:As tone doesn't come through on the internet, I maybe mistaking yours but I wasn't suggesting anything illegal in my question.
My original thought is perhaps someone managed to make cheap cell phone based set up or the like work.
I've never used radios and given the level I run the car at they really aren't much benefit other them giving a friend a way to be more involved.
I was not intending to imply that you were, sorry if it came across this way.
Basically just be aware that the second option exists and that if you ask around (especially in some of the low buck enduro racing series) you will find people who either don't know or don't care that their budget Chinese radios (Baofeng is a common brand) don't conform to FCC regs. I know folks who use them and while I don't judge them for it, that solution doesn't line up with my personal cost/benefit analysis.
I don't know of anyone using cell phones. You want something where the receiver is always running but the transmitter only comes up when you push the PTT button, and that's not really what cell phones are built to do. Theoretically you could probably hack up something with a bluetooth headset inside the helmet, a call that's left up for the entire race, and some hacked-up reverse mute button (that is, it's muted unless you press the button) on the steering wheel. I suspect you'd run into problems with the phone overheating, and if the call happens to drop in the middle of the race then getting it back up while driving seems like a PITA. Not to mention bluetooth is not the most reliable protocol and you could easily lose the connection to the headset as well.
IMHO, electronics in race cars need to be stupid simple. They should be powered by the car, turn on automatically when the car turns on, turn off automatically when the car turns off, and generally require as little manual fiddling as possible. Cell phones just aren't designed to work that way.
Do you ever race with SCCA or NASA? I'm happy to show you the system in my car if we're ever at the same event.
(edit: The old Nextel iDEN phones actually WERE built to have a PTT service run over cell phone frequencies with user-defined talk groups, but AFAIK that service is dead now)
I don't have anything to add other than a thank you. This one post contained so much information I didn't know (from the license stuff to my next thought of using Bluetooth motorcycle stuff)
Thank you. Give me a lot of insight for my project when the time comes!
Pippins said:There's nothing FCC non compliant about a Chinese radio. They just are not complaint to FCC guidance for a FMRS/GMRS bubble pack application. You just have a HAM radio and all the responsibility that comes with it.
The advantage to a business band license here is that it applies to anyone on your race team, rather than just to you. One common use for race car radios is endurance racing, where you are likely to want to be able to add people on short notice. Requiring that every driver and pit crew volunteer have his own ham license is likely to be difficult.
I mean what's your idea of budget? If you're looking at a complete kit for car and crew with motorola DMRs or AMRs you'll need to fork out 4 digits+. Plus extra if you want to be able to program some of those radios yourself.
We ran some Baofengs off amazon with an antenna, imsa car kit, etc that were decent but clarity was always an issue. Cost was about $250-300 at the time. Upgraded to DMRs from the same company which were a bit more pricey but still ran into issues with them.
We then upgraded to these. https://rapidradios.com/products/rapid-radios-nationwide-ptt-walkie-talkie
$400 for two, got 3 for the same price during a holiday sale. They run off a cell network so you do need to be in a place with cell service but they are crystal clear, batteries will last a full 14 hour race in Champcar, and we don't have to worry about some other team being on the same channel. We use the old baofengs in the pits and trailer. If you're old enough, it's like the old nextel phones with the PTT. Best bang for the buck IMO and you don't have to run an antenna or extra hardware in your car. Just hook it up to your car harness and PTT button and you're GTG.
In reply to DirtyBird222 :
I'd consider $400 fairly cheap.
Do the Rapid Radios have a yearly fee ?
They are promoted pretty heavy on local talk radio for "Preppers"
Answer From their website,
californiamilleghia said:They are promoted pretty heavy on local talk radio for "Preppers"
Huh, interesting to see someone brought back the iDEN concept, I didn't know about that.
If "preppers" are using them then I think they're missing the point. The kinds of scenarios they're usually prepping for, I would be surprised to see a functioning cell network.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:californiamilleghia said:They are promoted pretty heavy on local talk radio for "Preppers"
Huh, interesting to see someone brought back the iDEN concept, I didn't know about that.
If "preppers" are using them then I think they're missing the point. The kinds of scenarios they're usually prepping for, I would be surprised to see a functioning cell network.
Yeah but you can sell a lot of things with the "fear" that you do not want to be left out !
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