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eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
9/21/20 8:58 a.m.
einy (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Datsun310Guy :

A new Si stickers for $26,115 including destination in the Cincinnati area.  So, looks like CARMAX is pricing these at a premium to get one, as stock here is low to zero these days.

My experience is mainly in the Beechmont to Milford area, but what I’ve noticed is the import dealerships are very low on new cars, but the domestic dealers have tons of new cars, but almost no new trucks.  I’m seeing deals on Chevy Sparks, and I am noticing more of them rolling around the neighborhood.

Before all the shortages hit, and sales started recovering, I think the local FCA dealers must have panicked.  In the spring, I started seeing so many new Dodge Chargers and Challengers.  Seemed like there was a new one just in my neighborhood every week.

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/21/20 9:12 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So many people come at it from the way Curtis describes, and so many people hate buying cars at "stealerships", and so many people come away either feeling violated, or - worse - not even knowing they were violated.

And I can never understand why.  Assuming you're not walking to work, all the power is in your hands.  They need you to take that expensive paperweight off their books so much more than you need to buy that particular vehicle.

All it takes is for you to decide how much you're willing to pay for the vehicle in total.  Make that decision ahead of time, start your offers below that number, and stick to it.  Everything flows backwards from that.

 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/21/20 9:15 a.m.

The last few times I've driven past the Car Sense dealer along the PATP I noticed the inventory on the lot is way down.  Around 60% full were I to guess (driving past at 80 mph).  Along the drive to my mother's house, I pass a few lots that for many years were used as overflow lots for some nearby dealerships. Those lots are now empty.  Same for some other overflow lots I've passed in NJ over the past 6 months. 

0% for 60 months almost makes me want to go CTR shopping. Almost.

bigdaddylee82
bigdaddylee82 UberDork
9/21/20 9:18 a.m.
A 401 CJ said:

Could this “no / very low” interest thing with autos be simply that they are hiding the cost of the loan in the vehicle’s price?  That’s the consensus I arrived at when I posed this question on another forum.  Seems the agricultural equipment folks are doing the same thing.  It severely punishes those who would otherwise pay cash but those folks are being punished in every possible way in this paradigm.

It wasn't the case for the past 2 VWs we bought new in '14 and in '17.  Our credit union is small, it's available through where I work, we employee 400-500 folks state wide, and the only members are employees, retires, and their immediate family members.  It's more for convenience, as their office is on our campus, and direct deposits are seamless. 

Best our credit union would do for a car loan was 4%, and we've got excellent credit ratings.  VW Credit gave me 1.9% in '14 and 0.9% in '17.  I may be the exception, but VW absolutely did not make the money back in the price of the cars on us.  I'm a 100% ruthless shiny happy person when car shopping at dealerships, on the '14 when we came to a final price, the sales manager scribbled in all caps, several exclamation marks, and underlined, "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE!!!" on the deal contract I signed. laugh

When we bought in '14, VW Credit was offering extra incentives to purchase through them.  On top of a very reasonable price on the car, by financing through VW Credit we got an extra $1K off.  Save another grand, and 1.9% vs. the 4% through my credit union?  I'll give VW Credit my money thanks.

When we bought in '17, similar ruthless negotiating was used to get a very reasonable price, no extra incentives for using VW Credit, but our credit union still wouldn't do better than 4%.  VW Credit offered us 0.9%, so we went with VW again.

If you're paying sticker price, yeah, they're probably making their money back and then some.  I'd guess that's probably the case for a lot of the general car buying public, but it doesn't have to be.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
9/21/20 9:21 a.m.
Duke said:

I can never understand why.  Assuming you're not walking to work, all the power is in your hands.  They need you to take that expensive paperweight off their books so much more than you need to buy that particular vehicle.

To be fair, this is a very particular crowd.  Many of us want to buy a vehicle and find that there are like 3 for sale within 1000 miles (or zero, honestly).  So when you finally do find what seems to be a good option, it sucks when the dealership is frustrating.  I recognize that I have odd choices and that I likely pay more for my cars.  If I treated them like a commodity, life would likely be easier.

My issue with dealerships is related to your last comment.  I hate the fees bullE36 M3.  I get that they are running a business and need to turn a profit, but don't try and play games with me like I'm a berkeleying moron.  Just tell me what it will cost to walk out the door with that car.  I looked at a car listed for $7500 recently and after talking to a sales guy it was quite a bit over $9k after dealer fees.

How pissed would you be if you went to buy a gallon of milk at Costco for $3.00 and when you got to the register there was a 25 cent doc fee, a 15 cent dealer fee and a 10 cent protection package (that isn't optional)?

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/21/20 9:37 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I'm not pissed at all.  It all goes into the bottom line price of the car, which I've already decided.  If I'm willing to pay $38,000 for the car, I couldn't care less if they charge me $37,000 for the car, plus $500 filing fee, $250 advertising fee, and $250 for the coffee. 

Of course, if we make a deal at $38,000 and then they add $1,000 in fees, either we're renegotiating or we're leaving.  But that is easily avoided by just asking upfront what the fees are, and making sure they're included in all discussions.

Money is money.  Always talk bottom line.  Everything else is meaningless.

[edit]  I paid a little too much for the V70 last summer.  It was a 5-hour train ride away.  I probably paid $1500 more than I should have.  But it was the only car configured precisely the way I wanted it east of the Mississippi.  I knew that and I was willing to pay for it.

 

bigdaddylee82
bigdaddylee82 UberDork
9/21/20 9:41 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Agree to an out the door price.  If they pull the "mandatory fees" BS, tell them that those fees are coming out of the agreed up on price.

The VW we bought in '17, they tried to pull that crap on us.  We agreed to an out the door price, and then it went up a few hundred dollars after they added their fees.  I refused to sign.  It was only a few hundred bucks, in the grand scheme, peanuts compared to the overall price, but those were my peanuts, and I hadn't agreed to trade them for the car.

The sales manager had to get involved, tried the BS, "the state requires those fees," line on us.  He didn't really like me correcting him, "no, the state requires you disclose those fees, but they don't require you to charge them."  Then he tried to be friends with me, big smiles, joking around, "come on man, you really going to beat us up over a few hundred dollars?" stuck his hand out for a friendly handshake.  I didn't take his hand, looked him in the eyes and said, "yes." 

They amended the price to reflect the cost of all of the fees, and we took the car home at the agreed upon, out the door price.

Car salesmen aren't people, they shouldn't be treated as if they are. devil

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/21/20 9:53 a.m.

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

No, car salesmen are people, and should be treated as if they are.

Be upfront.  You don't need to disclose your maximum price, but just tell everyone straight off that all the numbers you talk with them must include all fees.

It's as easy as that.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
9/21/20 9:53 a.m.
Duke said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I'm not pissed at all.  It all goes into the bottom line price of the car, which I've already decided.  If I'm willing to pay $38,000 for the car, I couldn't care less if they charge me $37,000 for the car, plus $500 filing fee, $250 advertising fee, and $250 for the coffee. 

Of course, if we make a deal at $38,000 and then they add $1,000 in fees, either we're renegotiating or we're leaving.  But that is easily avoided by just asking upfront what the fees are, and making sure they're included in all discussions.

Money is money.  Always talk bottom line.  Everything else is meaningless.

I agree with all of this.  The problem I have is cars are not listed like this.  They are listed at some arbitrary price and each dealer has different amounts of BS fees they add onto the price.  So for every car I have to make a phone call or email and write down the 'real' price (if the dealer is responds and is cooperative) before I can gain an accurate picture of what the market looks like.

bigdaddylee82
bigdaddylee82 UberDork
9/21/20 10:17 a.m.
Duke said:

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

No, car salesmen are people, and should be treated as if they are.

 

Maybe, technically, but Dante would stick the lot of them in the 8th circle of Hell.

Agree to disagree. wink

 

When I was a working at a dealership, I knew a bunch of car salespeople, I'd guess we had 30-40 sales staff, about 20 of which were stable constants, the rest were a revolving door.  Of the constants, 3 or 4 of them were legitimately good folks, trying to get customers in an appropriate vehicle at a reasonable price.  The rest were trying to wring every last cent out of the customer for whatever the most expensive thing they could put them in, and then brag about who screwed who over the most amongst the other sales staff.  We had some unscrupulous finance and service staff too, so a lot of them suck too.

So I've developed a deep, passionate, car salesman bigotry.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/21/20 10:28 a.m.
Duke said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So many people come at it from the way Curtis describes, and so many people hate buying cars at "stealerships", and so many people come away either feeling violated, or - worse - not even knowing they were violated.

And I can never understand why.  Assuming you're not walking to work, all the power is in your hands.  They need you to take that expensive paperweight off their books so much more than you need to buy that particular vehicle.

All it takes is for you to decide how much you're willing to pay for the vehicle in total.  Make that decision ahead of time, start your offers below that number, and stick to it.  Everything flows backwards from that.

 

This. I've purchased (if you count my ex-wife's two) 6 new vehicles between 2010 and 2015. As soon as they say, "What kind of payment are you looking to make/afford?"
"I'm not shopping on payment, I'm shopping on vehicle price."

That ends it right there. You can't blame the dealerships for your own lack of information. In this day and age, there is really no excuse for it other than being lazy.

And I even sweeten it with, "Match X rate from the credit union and I'll let you guys finance it as well." If they offer a price you feel comfortable with, take the deal. If you don't like the price for the extras or extended warranty, don't buy them.

 

So many people go out of their way to make things stressful or more difficult. 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
9/21/20 10:44 a.m.
A 401 CJ said:

I'm sorry for hijacking the thread but I don't believe it's that simple.  If it were, they would have thought of it years ago.

I think something fundamental has changed since '08 and I'm on a quest to understand it.  I think it has something to do with the lack of real growth in the economy.  
 

but I'll stop now before I pollute any more.

Another short term change that's probably behind a lot of the buyback offers: We all of a sudden have a lot of people who really don't want to be on public transportation with a lot of strangers, but don't have the money for a new car.

Hoondavan
Hoondavan HalfDork
9/21/20 12:18 p.m.
Duke said:

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

No, car salesmen are people, and should be treated as if they are.

Be upfront.  You don't need to disclose your maximum price, but just tell everyone straight off that all the numbers you talk with them must include all fees.

It's as easy as that.

 

These "we need  your used car" emails/calls have been a scam to increase traffic in my experience.  The last time I actually responded to one their offer for my trade (Civic Si) was laughably low and the price for the "upgrade" new Civic was actually  higher than their online prices.  This was a Honda dealership.

I've been thinking about selling my VW Alltrack 6MT for a few months.  I've checked the Carvana estimate a few times now and it's gone up by at least $1,500 of the last few months.  They're actually pretty close to a price where it may be worth the hassle to sell it to them. ~$13k last time I checked.

Just for giggles I asked for a trade-in quote from my local VW dealer and it's higher than I imagined...range of $13.2k to $15.2k.  Of course, I have zero interest in buying a new VW...but this spring the trade-in price was closer to $10-$12k.  

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones HalfDork
9/21/20 12:19 p.m.

A lot of what Curtis is saying is usually true, but currently the offers to buy are legit as inventory is tough to come by. Dealers are buying off of the street, for good money, with no expectation of you buying a car.  If you're bored just put your car in Carvana and see what they will buy it for, it's a legit offer. It's not the usual car market right now.

Curtis did a month of training years ago as he posted, but many people here are seeing it play out first hand (Like Svrex posted), and some people here work for Cox.  Cox has a pretty good handle on the car market.

 

From USA Today

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/08/05/car-prices-coronavirus-pandemic-new-trucks-suvs/3297869001/

 

If you were hoping to find some savings during the COVID-19 pandemic, you won't find them in the used-car market, unfortunately.

Then again, you might be able to make a few bucks if you're willing to part with a vehicle because used-car prices are spiking due to an unusual confluence of factors during the pandemic.

The reasons? Among them are that buyers are flooding the used-car market, looking for deals amid high prices for new vehicles, low interest rates and a shortage of new-vehicle inventory, according to car-research site Edmunds.

The average listing price of used vehicles was $21,558 in July, up $708 from June. 

"This is an unprecedented historical shift in the used vehicle market, where listing prices typically decrease during this time period due to depreciation," Edmunds said Wednesday.

Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) MegaDork
9/21/20 9:14 p.m.

All of this would matter if I didn't drive hooptie pieces of E36 M3 no dealer wants to have on their lot.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UberDork
9/21/20 9:59 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

All of this would matter if I didn't drive hooptie pieces of E36 M3 no dealer wants to have on their lot.

Um, yeah. That's me, too. My wife's Mazda 5, excepted, I guess, but we're not replacing it.

The rest of the fleet is a pair of 2004's, a 99, and an 88.

No Time
No Time Dork
9/22/20 5:04 a.m.

In reply to Loweguy5 (Forum Supporter) :

Aliens don't have the same moral compass as the rest of us, so they disguise themselves as car salesmen. People just pass it off as car salesmen are immoral allowing the aliens to hide in plain site while plotting to take over world financial markets with low interest loans offers to get people in the door and then locking into a never ending cycle of car payments and subprime loans. 

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/22/20 5:08 a.m.
eastsideTim said:
einy (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Datsun310Guy :

A new Si stickers for $26,115 including destination in the Cincinnati area.  So, looks like CARMAX is pricing these at a premium to get one, as stock here is low to zero these days.

My experience is mainly in the Beechmont to Milford area, but what I’ve noticed is the import dealerships are very low on new cars, but the domestic dealers have tons of new cars, but almost no new trucks.  

It was the same situation with Si’s throughout Cincinnati and Dayton areas when I was buying last month.  I think the production run of them for 2020 was about over, coupled with an uptick in demand for that particular model as there seemed to be plenty of other Civic variants in stock across town.  

Generally speaking, I am seeing alot of temporary plates on cars these days, both new and used.  Meaning, lots of buying going on.  And this is not because the BMV is closed, as I got my new Si a real plate the day the title arrived in the mail with no wait to replace the temporary one that the dealer issued at purchase.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman SuperDork
9/22/20 6:31 a.m.
John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) said:

Price a new car and the availability of that new car before you offload your perfectly good (and valuable) CRV. 

 

After deciding you want something new and seeing its availability. Then shop different buy it now prices for the current car, carvana, vroom, kbb instant offer, autonation instant offer, carmax... 

I recently purchased a new to me minivan and sold my old car. 

My car was a 2015 Mustang GT with 58k miles I paid 30k +tax,tags, title. Currently the same dealer is offering 2020 models for 32k +TTT. 

The offers on my car ranged from 21-23,500. I walked into the dealer that offered 23,500 sight unseen and after they did a 2 minute test drive and then they wrote me a check. They even offered to give me a ride home. The car is listed for 28,990 which I think is crazy. 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
9/22/20 7:41 a.m.
bigdaddylee82 said:

 

Maybe, technically, but Dante would stick the lot of them in the 8th circle of Hell.

Agree to disagree. wink

Specifically, that ring where you're stuck in a lizard body unless you steal a human one? Only they have to buy or lease human bodies with various fees tacked on...

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/22/20 8:45 a.m.
Loweguy5 (Forum Supporter) said:

5.  After reading all of these theories about how dealerships work, I would hate to see what this group says about the existence of aliens.

This explains SO MUCH.  Car dealers are actually alien observation farms.  They're not taking humans for anal probing, THEY'RE TAKING US FOR CHUMPS.

I kid.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/22/20 8:49 a.m.

Threads like this make me want to drive something I can fix indefinitely with basic blacksmithing skills, rather than financing an off lease Audi in a couple years.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/22/20 8:55 a.m.
bigdaddylee82 said:
Duke said:

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

No, car salesmen are people, and should be treated as if they are.

 

Maybe, technically, but Dante would stick the lot of them in the 8th circle of Hell.

Agree to disagree. wink

 

When I was a working at a dealership, I knew a bunch of car salespeople, I'd guess we had 30-40 sales staff, about 20 of which were stable constants, the rest were a revolving door.  Of the constants, 3 or 4 of them were legitimately good folks, trying to get customers in an appropriate vehicle at a reasonable price.  The rest were trying to wring every last cent out of the customer for whatever the most expensive thing they could put them in, and then brag about who screwed who over the most amongst the other sales staff.  We had some unscrupulous finance and service staff too, so a lot of them suck too.

So I've developed a deep, passionate, car salesman bigotry.

My experience could be described similarly, but the salespeople I experienced were a little opposite.  The revolving door were people like me.  Empath Scanners who see the lure of money, the ability to be creative and have a chance to interact with people.  I found it to be like the best acting gig I ever had.  But after three years I realized that my astronomical blood pressure, bouts of anger, and disdain for the job was telling me that I was being corroded by sitting idly by while customers took it up the butt was costing me my mental health.  Watching a rich older couple come in and negotiate just a bit over invoice for a cash deal was interesting, but watching a sales manager absolutely salivate over a young poor couple with three kids because he knows he will make a fortune in interest and can easily snag their minivan for cheap kinda tugged at my heartstrings in a way that was corrosive to my existence.  It flies in the face of everything I stand for.

The stalwart, lifetime, career salespeople were the ones who worshipped the paycheck enough that they turned a blind eye to that young, poor couple that we just hosed and said "tough luck, you paid, thanks for the steak dinner."  They certainly weren't "bad" people, but they didn't embody the type of human I choose to hold in high respect.

Bleeding hearts have little or no place in a car dealership, except maybe as a detailer.

My talents found their true home in auto repair.  I was honest and trustworthy and never suggested work that wasn't needed.  I gave customers a full list in three levels of importance.  1- this is why you brought it in, if you don't fix it, your wheel will fall off and you'll die.  2- I also noticed that your CV joints are making noise, and since we have to take it out anyway, it will cost $X to put a reman unit back in.  3- I noticed that the rear shocks are just starting to leak.  Not important now, but next year it won't pass inspection.  I rocked it.  9 times out of 10, they just opened up their wallets and trusted me with the whole job.  I had a customer bring his teenage boys into the shop after a repair and he instructed the boys that their cars only come to me, and the three of them had baked me a Pecan pie... including shelling all the pecans from their own tree.

Back to the topic at hand, I would really like to see what dealers actually offer in person compared to the phone/mail solicitation.  At all three of the dealers where I worked, our first offer on a trade was judged by a metric set by the sales manager, and it was always around 30%.  At the end of the week, you totalled all the trades that came in versus their black book trade in value, and that number was supposed to be 30% or less.  If it was over 50%, he was pissed.

The impetus for that was partly dollar signs and lining pockets, but it was also simply a target.  I had the same target in my repair shops.  In shops where I paid flag/book time, my number was 50%.  Based on an average volume of cars, I had to make 50% profit just to keep the doors open.  

I mention that because dealers cannot simply alter their strategy and keep the doors open.  Paying you an inflated amount for your desperately needed trade costs them money.  Unless they can turn a very healthy profit on that vehicle, they can't pay the salesperson, pay the rent, pay the electric, or pay their state taxes.  Selling a car for $1000 more than they paid actually costs them money.  It's not a concept of "well, we need to make whatever dollars we can," it's that not hitting their profit percentage actually ends up costing them more money than they make.

So let's say you have a car that you bought new two years ago for $25k and it has 30k miles on it now.  It's worth $18k in non-pandemic times.  A dealer calls you and says we're desperate for cars and we'll give you $24k for yours.  They would have to turn around and sell it for at least (let's say) $27k to break even after overhead.  Two things don't jive for me in that scenario.  1) trying to fleece some customer into paying more than new on a used car is not a speculation they would be willing to entertain. 2) although wholesale auctions are more expensive these days, they would have to be more expensive by about 100% before auction cars would be so expensive that dealers would freely offer retail as a trade in.  That used car they offered you $24k for could be had at an auction for $10k in non-covid times.  Even if they now were selling for twice the price, it still makes sense to get one at auction for $20k than buy yours for $24k.

I call BS.  If anyone of you goes to the dealer with that offer, I'm very interested to see what they ACTUALLY offer.  I promise you, it won't be retail.  It's a non-sustainable operation.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/22/20 9:22 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Threads like this make me want to drive something I can fix indefinitely with basic blacksmithing skills, rather than financing an off lease Audi in a couple years.

My newest vehicle is a 1994.  The only exception is a motorcycle that is a 99, but it's carbureted and has a CD ignition, so I consider it old-school.

wae
wae UltraDork
9/22/20 10:06 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I call BS.  If anyone of you goes to the dealer with that offer, I'm very interested to see what they ACTUALLY offer.  I promise you, it won't be retail.  It's a non-sustainable operation.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned this, but a Honda dealer responded to my brother's Craigslist ad for his Accord, made him a good offer over the phone, and had him out the door with his check and not a single word about trying to buy anything else.  There was no further negotiation or anything like that.  They cut a check for the amount they agreed to on the phone and he was out of there in about 30-45 minutes.  That's a little different than the whole calling people out of the blue and saying that they want to buy your car, but if they're trolling Craigslist and FB Marketplace, it stands to reason that the cold calls are at least 85% legit at this moment in time.

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