I know there has always been a bunch of talk about the EPA finally clamping down on this stuff and it looks like they finally are. Explains why FM and others are giving up developing those products.
I know there has always been a bunch of talk about the EPA finally clamping down on this stuff and it looks like they finally are. Explains why FM and others are giving up developing those products.
Why would it be the death knell for them when the only thing the EPA wants is for them not to allow for increases in emissions? The tuners they were selling were allowing people to bypass rear O2 sensors and to negate DTCs associated with them.
Any time people say that something is the death of performance cars or performance tuning, it seems to come back stronger than ever.
It's been against the law for a long time, and companies have been getting fined for doing that for a long time.
Plus, there's a very legal path to modify devices, which I know FM is doing. It's not *that* hard, nor is it as strenuous as what OEM's have to certify.
It looks like the main thing that got Derive in hot water was offering tuners that would let you pass an OBD2 test with a lot of emissions equipment removed.
We've been putting a bit more emphasis on how MegaSquirt products are not street legal, unless you've got something old enough to predate the Clean Air Act, and being very specific that there is no way one is going to pass an OBD2 test.
I want them to go more agressively against the coal rollers... People deleting their DPF need to go straight to jail.
for a SI engine... I'd say that if you have the cat's in place with the O2's functioning... You'll probably still meet emissions even with a tune.
I don't think a 300,00 fine is a death knell for anyone...
It seems to me like the only way you will get singled out is if you actively promote and give guidance on the features of your product which explicitly defeat emissions devices. I'm pretty sure there are lots of systems that could be used to defeat emissions controls if users figure it out and care to, but if you're telling them how in your sales literature or promoting that aspect as a feature you're probably going to draw attention.
I think it's a slippery slope of accepting our EPA overlords and a tighter regulation of the aftermarket. I hate coal rollers as much as the next guy, but how will you feel when they come after our performance tuning software and devices? Megasquirt, Cobb Accessport, etc.
IF it is over 15 years here in ma there is no OBD2 test. You can even have the CHK engine light on and you still pass. I dont see this as being much of an issue for what I do. It may impact those that mess with new cars.
Many tuners on many different platforms kill the secondary O2 sensor for a tune. Or remove the CEL for one that's been entirely removed. Which is why I find this particularly interesting. I'm not saying it is, and that's why I put the caveat of "readily available" in the title.
Robbie, what I understood was that the EPA capped the fine so as not to put the company out of business.
dean1484, yeah it doesn't matter in some states, but does in others. We haven't had yearly inspections in Oklahoma since for the last 19-20 years. So CEL, no cats, etc, aren't an issue here.
No, I think the tuners will still be available. However, they'll probably get rid of the ability to delete emissions equipment, emissions fault codes and make emissions readiness monitors always read "ready".
Tuners will refuse to code out rear O2 sensors for instance, or make people sign some sort of document and prove the car is race use only...
z31maniac saidRobbie, what I understood was that the EPA capped the fine so as not to put the company out of business.
So the message we learn is that the EPA wants the rule breakers to stay in business?
I was making fun of the poor editing in the linked article, but if that part is true it's a much bigger joke!
Robbie said:I don't think a 300,00 fine is a death knell for anyone...
And bring the devices into compliance. Which isn't an insignificant cost as ArsTechnica says Derive is expecting to spend close to six million on compliance.
As I understand it, it's not the hardware that is illegal. Selling the tune which was intended to bring vehicles out of compliance by defeating the emission controls is where they got into trouble.
n8 said:I think it's a slippery slope of accepting our EPA overlords and a tighter regulation of the aftermarket. I hate coal rollers as much as the next guy, but how will you feel when they come after our performance tuning software and devices? Megasquirt, Cobb Accessport, etc.
Technically, those things are already illegal for on road use, and I'm 100% sure that there are people in the EPA who are very much aware of MS, Cobb, and HP tuners.
Also, the rules are not getting tighter on the aftermarket, they are just there. The rule is that for a product that is sold as a on road legal product, you are not allowed to disable emissions devices, and that if you modify the emissions system at all, you must prove that the change did not effect the standard that the vehicle was certified at- for both the gas emissions standard and the OBD sensing.
Some of you may be STUNNED, but there are some real gear heads who are GRM enthusiasts that work at the EPA. So to think they don't know would be to ignore the obvious.
z31maniac said:Many tuners on many different platforms kill the secondary O2 sensor for a tune. Or remove the CEL for one that's been entirely removed. Which is why I find this particularly interesting. I'm not saying it is, and that's why I put the caveat of "readily available" in the title.
Robbie, what I understood was that the EPA capped the fine so as not to put the company out of business.
dean1484, yeah it doesn't matter in some states, but does in others. We haven't had yearly inspections in Oklahoma since for the last 19-20 years. So CEL, no cats, etc, aren't an issue here.
Why in the world would they feel the need to kill the second O2 sensor? It has no bearing what so ever on performance.
Unless you are taking the catalyst out, which is a specific defeat device thing to do, and is very illegal.
docwyte said:Tuners will refuse to code out rear O2 sensors for instance, or make people sign some sort of document and prove the car is race use only...
Its still illegal to defeat it even on race cars. I think they will just need to live with the light.
alfadriver said:Technically, those things are already illegal for on road use, and I'm 100% sure that there are people in the EPA who are very much aware of MS, Cobb, and HP tuners.
I understand that, but the fact that they are going after the manufacturer for how the end user is using them is troubling. This is a step in the direction of regulating the manufacture of said items instead of regulating how they are used.
n8 said:I think it's a slippery slope of accepting our EPA overlords and a tighter regulation of the aftermarket. I hate coal rollers as much as the next guy, but how will you feel when they come after our performance tuning software and devices? Megasquirt, Cobb Accessport, etc.
I’m as protective of performance enhancements as the next guy. I don’t think enforcing plain and easily understood rules is anything bad.
What is bad is to assume we can’t make more power without the need to violate the rules. Racers do it all the time and once in a while they cheat and get caught.
n8 said:alfadriver said:Technically, those things are already illegal for on road use, and I'm 100% sure that there are people in the EPA who are very much aware of MS, Cobb, and HP tuners.
I understand that, but the fact that they are going after the manufacturer for how the end user is using them is troubling. This is a step in the direction of regulating the manufacture of said items instead of regulating how they are used.
If enough people ignored MS, Cobb, and HP tuners to make a huge amount of non-compliant street cars, then, yes, the EPA would then go after companies that are just selling the stuff. Which is why people should be aware of that, and either 1) keep their stuff off road, or 2) use it just for racing.
The diesel people have a real tough time using the racing and off roading excuse because 1) there are so few diesels who actually race and 2) it's REALLY obvious when you are rolling coal that you are in violation. So between those two- that's why diesel has gotten some more looks.
But still, as a group, we can't live in a vacuum and actually think that doing things like we are have no effect. That's totally not true, and if too many people do it, that's a very quick invitation to be regulated.
BTW, if IS the manufacturers responsibility to sell legal parts if they are going to be used on road. That is the law, and that is exactly what FM is doing with their turbo kits.
frenchyd said:n8 said:I think it's a slippery slope of accepting our EPA overlords and a tighter regulation of the aftermarket. I hate coal rollers as much as the next guy, but how will you feel when they come after our performance tuning software and devices? Megasquirt, Cobb Accessport, etc.
I’m as protective of performance enhancements as the next guy. I don’t think enforcing plain and easily understood rules is anything bad.
What is bad is to assume we can’t make more power without the need to violate the rules. Racers do it all the time and once in a while they cheat and get caught.
The last part is what frustrates me about the after market tuners. There's REALLY easy ways to make a little more power, if you know how to. And very legally (given the aftermarket requirements vs. OEM). Sadly, few ever put the effort in to find out, and just hack their way into more power- which ends up both failing emissions and breaking the car.
My understading is that states like California don't really care about emissions - if they did, they woud test for emission levels and if you passed you'd be out of there regardless of whether or not you had original equipment. But their system actually makes it illegal to change OEM equipment even if it results in an improvement in emissions level......makes zero sense to me.
It surprises me that vendors of CAT bypass pipes have been allowed continue for so long, too. Buy a lower restriction CAT, sure. Eliminate it, no.
alfadriver said:n8 said:I think it's a slippery slope of accepting our EPA overlords and a tighter regulation of the aftermarket. I hate coal rollers as much as the next guy, but how will you feel when they come after our performance tuning software and devices? Megasquirt, Cobb Accessport, etc.
Technically, those things are already illegal for on road use, and I'm 100% sure that there are people in the EPA who are very much aware of MS, Cobb, and HP tuners.
Also, the rules are not getting tighter on the aftermarket, they are just there. The rule is that for a product that is sold as a on road legal product, you are not allowed to disable emissions devices, and that if you modify the emissions system at all, you must prove that the change did not effect the standard that the vehicle was certified at- for both the gas emissions standard and the OBD sensing.
Some of you may be STUNNED, but there are some real gear heads who are GRM enthusiasts that work at the EPA. So to think they don't know would be to ignore the obvious.
I guess I always took a more strict approach to what the EPA would and would not consider legal.
"Modify the emissions system at all" seems it would include any tune that isn't the factory calibration? The computer controls the spark, fuel, cams, etc, so changing any part of that "modifies the emissions system," no? Or am I just being too literal?
In reply to z31maniac :
You are correct. What I think you are missing is the path that can be taken to prove that the change you made meet the aftermarket requirements.
It would be really easy to make a few tweaks, test it, and show no real change, but it would meet the aftermarket requirements to sell as an on road device. It's not that ANY modification is illegal, it's if you modify it, you are required to prove that it meets requirements. That's it.
And that makes any change or modification legal for both CARB and EPA (and both have clear rules on how to do that).
wspohn said:My understading is that states like California don't really care about emissions - if they did, they woud test for emission levels and if you passed you'd be out of there regardless of whether or not you had original equipment. But their system actually makes it illegal to change OEM equipment even if it results in an improvement in emissions level......makes zero sense to me.
It surprises me that vendors of CAT bypass pipes have been allowed continue for so long, too. Buy a lower restriction CAT, sure. Eliminate it, no.
That's not actually true. If you can prove, in a lab, that it's better, than you can do it. But it has to be legally demonstrated. And the lab that does the sniffer does not meet the requirement to demonstrate that.
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm
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