It's that time... LMS Miata stuff

It's that time in turbo Miata ownership where i once again think about wanting a non-turbo slow car to horse around.

I have other cars on my mind, but right now i specifically want to talk about two different "ways to Miata." I have an "Ultimate Miata" in mind for what i'm wanting, but i don't know which generation is "right" for me, and it's going to come down to which is "better."

So.... which is better? NA or NB?

Criteria for "better": Price, performance, and which will be "nicer" for the budget.

Budget: $6k to buy and build the ultimate Miata. (Initially)

Recipe: NB motor (Either BP4W or VVT, i somewhat prefer BP4W), intake/header/exhaust for some noise, light flywheel, decent suspension, sticky rubber, good brakes, roll bar, hardtop, racing seats, frame rails. Oh, and NOT RED.

What I already have: Boundary Engineering Frame Rails, Boss Frog Frog Arms, Boss Frog Clearview Rollbar, NB2 Sport brakes, coolant re-route kit, custom Swank Force Racing coilover kit.

SO... what do i chase after? Which car is better for this? NA or NB? The idea is to have something i can just hop in whenever i feel like it, thrash it, or drive it across the country, do an autox on a whim, sign up for a track day last minute and not worry about needing to spend the entire week prepping, etc.

Is the answer a 90-93 for as much lightness as possible with a 99-00 motor, 6spd, and a 4.10 Torsen?

What would YOU go after, and why?

Depends how much work you want to do. If you get an NB, it's already got the NB motor and rear end. Really, NA vs NB doesn't matter given the frankensteining you have planned. Price won't matter much either, as both of those are at the point where the condition of the vehicle is more important than the model year.

My street car is a 1990 with an NB motor. I like the looks and the interior of the 1.6 personally. But it's not as stiff as an NB2, although it's lighter.

Most important: what do you want to see in your driveway and surrounding you when you drive? You already have part of a mental picture with your NOT RED specification, so what's the rest of it look like? You've got the ability to build just about anything you want out of the raw materials given to us by Mazda over 15 years.

I've always wanted to have an NA and wire something up so that I could make it 'wink' with the flip up lights.

Keith Tanner wrote: Depends how much work you want to do. If you get an NB, it's already got the NB motor and rear end. Really, NA vs NB doesn't matter given the frankensteining you have planned. Price won't matter much either, as both of those are at the point where the condition of the vehicle is more important than the model year. My street car is a 1990 with an NB motor. I like the looks and the interior of the 1.6 personally. But it's not as stiff as an NB2, although it's lighter. Most important: what do you want to see in your driveway and surrounding you when you drive? You already have part of a mental picture with your NOT RED specification, so what's the rest of it look like? You've got the ability to build just about anything you want out of the raw materials given to us by Mazda over 15 years.

I think my problem is that i like NAs and NBs equally for different reasons. I like the more modern interiors that the NBs have, but also really like the NA6 dash for that more vintage flavor. NA8 interior is kinda... ok i guess. Probably my least favorite.

Problem with NB1s, which are my favorite NB to drive, is that they have the crappy headlights, and then i have to do bodywork things to get the NB2 front conversion.

Problem with NA6 Miatas, which i like, because they're the lightest, is that they're floppy. But... with frame rails, roll bar, frog arms, etc... probably doesn't matter at that point.

My bet is that with the work i'd put into it, the NA6 will end up being the fastest, but also the least enjoyable for long trips out of the bunch.

Honestly i've considered buying another high mileage but clean MSM and de-turboing it, since it would get me the "nicest" of the NA/NB, the most solid, but the heaviest.

I think the problem is that i think i'm after manual everything. Steering rack, windows, no cruise control, no a/c. Think more streetable track car, less track-able street car. SCCA STR build without the STR limitations.

Maybe i should list the Miatas i've had and what i liked and hated about them.

1) 2004 MSM with a bunch of goodies. Liked: Looked awesome, was very comfy, didn't look outdated in any way, was fast and effortless in every way. The color was awesome. 6spd felt great and i loved the gearing spacing Disliked: Too nice, if that makes sense. Didn't feel heavy on its own, but driven back to back to an NA, it was noticeable.

2) 2000 base with mild track prep. Liked: REALLY eager feeling, if also extremely underpowered (compared to MSM and other turbo miata). Made great noises, awesome response. Disliked: Color (red), and the headlights sucked.

3) 1995 built motor turbo miata. Like: Completely insane. Needs to be wrestled hard at anything over 6/10s, but feels light on its feet and eager. Tons of power. Interior surprisingly spacious. Dislike: Too much power, feels a bit disconnected with the power steering, a/c, cruise control, etc. Car is a bit of a pig, and might have too many amenities. Also: Red.

4) 1993 built 1.6 turbo car. Likes: Blue. 1.6 interior. Felt light. Dislikes: turbo again, floppy. I still have this car, just sans driveline. It's not included in this exercise, i have other plans for it.

So you like the NB interior because it's modern, but you like the NA6 because it's vintage. Man, I thought girls were hard to figure out.

NB2 front end on to an NB1 does not require bodywork. It requires bolting. Been there, done that. All you need is the headlights and the bumper skin, IIRC. Very easy. And those NB1 headlights suck.

One of the guys at FM has an MSM. He's talking about de-turboing it just to mess with people. He's got a Porsche 928, so you can tell he's not like everyone else.

Keith Tanner wrote: Man, I thought girls were hard to figure out.

One forgets the great SUV thread of '14 so quickly, eh? LOL

Seriously though I think I get what he's going for. Simple design combined with modern comfort and usability.

I'd probably go with a NB interior and add some classic touches (steering wheel, some trim pieces, gauges, etc.).

I think what I was trying to say was that i'm not sure if I want the more modern feel or the vintage, but either way, i'm not in love with the na8 stuff.

As for bodywork... I mean i'd have to find the bumper in the right color already or pay monies to have it painted. Unsure if I like the idea of "wasting" money on that.

In reply to turboswede:

I think I want the simplicity and power nothing either way, it's just a modern vs classic thing as you say.

I wouldnt try to "update" an NA, and I wouldn't try to "backdate" an NB.

And no wood. I hate wood interior things almost as much as red.

Headlights go up. Headlights go down. Headlights go up. Headlights go down. NA All the way.

I like the door handles on NA's and I like fixed headlights like this;

Can you get a lamp setup like that on an NA? Do FE3's sound nice uncorked?

There have been exposed headlight conversions available for Miatas on and off for a couple of decades. They all suck and then vanish from the market. Maybe someone will come up with one that uses small LEDs that finally works.

As for bumper color - learn to paint. It's not hard and not that expensive to do. Not compared to everything else you have planned.

Best headlights you can get for a Miata: NA popups with GE Nighthawk headlights.

I personally like the NA6 interior best - the dash is significantly lighter than the later ones and I think it looks the best. The rest are too melted. I agree that the NA8 is the least attractive dash. But the dashboards can be swapped around, so do what floats your boat.

Don't go into this thinking about "too hard" this or "too expensive" that. Build up your picture of the ideal setup and then figure out how to make it happen. It's much more rewarding to come up with solutions than try to think of problems.

In reply to pres589:

Sorry, I should say "ultimate BP powered Miata." One F swap is enough for me, and I don't really see the point to a non-turbo fe3.

NA with NB steering wheel = best of both worlds.

I've grown to really like my Momo Competition. Would probably buy another.

Oh wow, that wood grain in the interior is hideous.

I would go NB for sure. I've had one of each. NB sounds a lot closer to what you want to begin with. Any overlap there is with your stuff... just sell parts to increase budget.

Off to google this GE Nighthawk business Keith mentioned. My NB (03) headlights seem like the were 10 gazillion times better than my NA.

Edit: Just found Keith's thread on them. Dat light ... and unfortunately Dat price

Just another data point for you to consider:

I took a bone-stock 1990 and a crashed MSM (car was flipped and twisted up, couldn't be saved) and put the two together. I sold off all the exterior bits from the MSM and swapped the motor, torsen, and brakes into the 1990. I took off the turbo to keep things simple and kept the 5-speed. If I ever go FI, I still have the 6-speed in my garage. Other than that, the car is stock except for a MSPNP version 1, an RB front ARB, used Tein coilovers, 15x7 K1's with Yoko S-Drives, and a craigslist-score sparco seat. It's my first car and I largely taught myself how to do everything, so I'd say I'm a pretty average mechanic. Here are my observations, your results may vary:

Doing the NA -> NB conversion will "nickel and dime" you like crazy if you don't already have a stable of miata parts. Even with a complete donor, I had to source an NA8 alternator, NA8 cat, OEM exhaust manifold, fuel rail, and tons of other little bits. Granted, I did complicate things by using a Protege valve cover, but still, it wasn't cheap.

Doing a complete drivetrain swap is actually a great opportunity for cleaning and refreshing everything from seals to belts to hoses. This does drive up the cost, but also improves the finished product and is worth the time/money (IMO).

The car is a total blast to drive. Even with a stock motor, stock NA exhaust, and a flawed DIY intake (still need to build something proper), it has plenty of power. The NB engine seems smoother than the 1.6 and lets you drive the car in 5th gear at any speed with enough torque to accelerate in traffic without downshifting. With 205-series S-drives, the car doesn't have tons of grip, but is still very nimble. I plan on getting rid of A/C and depowering the P/S in the future.

Keeping everything OEM means that I can get parts for it at the local auto parts store. No fancy aftermarket parts to break. I've put about 3k miles on the swap and its been dead reliable.

Rattles and squeaks. The earliest NA6s are 21 years old, and even one in pristine condition (no rust in the Northeast, garaged year-round) the interior rattles and buzzes like crazy with the hardtop up. My next step to track some of the sources down and stiffen up the chassis, but still, its an old car.

Hope this helps

NA6_MSM wrote: Rattles and squeaks. The earliest NA6s are 21 years old, and even one in pristine condition (no rust in the Northeast, garaged year-round) the interior rattles and buzzes like crazy with the hardtop up. My next step to track some of the sources down and stiffen up the chassis, but still, its an old car.

26 years old in April, actually. Kind of mind boggling. Mine doesn't rattle and buzz very much at all.

Yes, the GE lights are a bit expensive. But if they keep me out of one deer, they'll pay for themselves Given that stock headlights for an E39 M5 are $600 PER SIDE, I'd call the GEs (or the seemingly identical Trucklite) a bargain.

Good luck with this build. I went with ignorance and thrift when I bought my first and so far only Miata. It's a '97 so I got the big motor and had a nicely installed HD rollbar, I scrounged CL for parts to make it louder (faster?) so it has Jackson Racing header, FM cat and exhaust, and RB intake. A FM 2.5 suspensions system makes it handle better and a cheapo swap rear end (99 torsen 4.3) got me a bit more grip and acceleration. That's about it for big stuff. Superlight battery for the summer and fully stripped out trunk ads lightness. Small steering wheel saves a few pounds and helps the feel (but I kept PS and AC). A racing seat (CL find) and belts makes it feel like an event when I strap it on but nearly ruin the DD experience.

I did replace the door cards with a set out of a '90 to eliminate that shoulder bulge that makes later interiors feel so tight. It probably gained me an inch at my left shoulder.

Keith Tanner wrote:

NA6_MSM wrote: Rattles and squeaks. The earliest NA6s are 21 years old, and even one in pristine condition (no rust in the Northeast, garaged year-round) the interior rattles and buzzes like crazy with the hardtop up. My next step to track some of the sources down and stiffen up the chassis, but still, its an old car.

26 years old in April, actually. Kind of mind boggling. Mine doesn't rattle and buzz very much at all. Yes, the GE lights are a bit expensive. But if they keep me out of one deer, they'll pay for themselves Given that stock headlights for an E39 M5 are $600 PER SIDE, I'd call the GEs (or the seemingly identical Trucklite) a bargain.

Also cheaper than MSM headlights, so there's that.

KyAllroad wrote: Good luck with this build. I went with ignorance and thrift when I bought my first and so far only Miata. It's a '97 so I got the big motor and had a nicely installed HD rollbar, I scrounged CL for parts to make it louder (faster?) so it has Jackson Racing header, FM cat and exhaust, and RB intake. A FM 2.5 suspensions system makes it handle better and a cheapo swap rear end (99 torsen 4.3) got me a bit more grip and acceleration. That's about it for big stuff. Superlight battery for the summer and fully stripped out trunk ads lightness. Small steering wheel saves a few pounds and helps the feel (but I kept PS and AC). A racing seat (CL find) and belts makes it feel like an event when I strap it on but nearly ruin the DD experience. I did replace the door cards with a set out of a '90 to eliminate that shoulder bulge that makes later interiors feel so tight. It probably gained me an inch at my left shoulder.

This is mostly mental masturbation at the moment, i don't want to get anyone's hopes up like in the Great SUV Thread of 2014.

This is hinging on a couple things.

1) I sell the current Miata as planned. (As in, buyer doesn't flake again)
2) I don't buy an MR-S instead
3) I don't make the decision to not replace the Miata at all and instead dump the money into the other cars in the fleet

I just want to make sure i have a clear game plan that i can act on and finish before summer if i go with the Miata. The allure of going with the Miata is that i already have quite a bit of parts laying around.

I kind of like option 3 out of your list. Seemed like you had a lot of existing "challenges" to deal with. Then again I would have suggested not buying a Cherokee and instead getting a set of winter wheels and tires for your MX6. I'm kind of lame like that.

pres589 wrote: I kind of like option 3 out of your list. Seemed like you had a lot of existing "challenges" to deal with. Then again I would have suggested not buying a Cherokee and instead getting a set of winter wheels and tires for your MX6. I'm kind of lame like that.

I have winter wheels and tires for the MX6. The MX6 doesn't have hvac anymore, and hasn't run in a year.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Ouch.

I've been playing this mental game myself for a while, assembling the Miata that is the most Miata. The closest to the original intent, what the designers might have built if they'd had access to the complete catalog of parts made during the NA/NB production run. Kinda like a Singer 911 at 10% of the budget. My goal was to get it done for the same price as MSRP of a brand new one (which is also almost exactly the same as MSRP of a brand new 1990 in corrected dollars, BTW) including realistic labor costs. That last bit makes it difficult, and it's the difference between my budget and Swank's. His total budget is equivalent to about 60 hours of labor.

My recipe involves an NA body, probably Mariner Blue. NA6 dashboard. Modified NB2 seats. Door cards with strap pulls and a map pocket. Momo Prototipo steering wheel, custom gauges, a few other little tweaks along the lines of my own street car. NB top and frame. NB2 engine with some tweaks to make it more responsive - this is a big problem area, budget-wise. 4.1 Torsen, Little Big Brakes, MSM booster and master. Suspension is undecided, probably the new FOX setup I'm working on. Light wheels (another problem area, as they're so trendy style-wise), okay but not super-sticky tires so the car can be tossable on the street. NB subframes, front uprights, control arms and steering rack. Butterfly brace and/or seam welding to make it stiff. LED lights everywhere, probably including the headlights.

I've been calling it The Pure Edition If I had time, I'd built one and offer it to a magazine to compare at the ND launch. But I don't have time.