Jeep

Four pages and it took me this long to get here. Saying the word "Jeep" is like throwing up the Bat Signal to me.

As a collection of enthusiasts that consistently has to defend its hobby, I thought most people on here would be more understanding. After all, what's being said here about off-road vehicles (Jeeps in particular) is often said about sports cars, and those on GRM are usually on defense.

Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

And the argument that "the buying public won't ever see the use of the Jeep's offroad capability..." No one has thought that the same thing has been said about the performance of a sports car? How many times have I heard that most of buying public driving Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and NSX's won't use the full capability of the vehicle? It's a poor argument. "Soften it up, because most people won't fully use it." Say good-bye to anything with off-road capability, and anything resembling a sports car or muscle car.

The Jeep remains rough and retains its off-road capability because if you want a softer vehicle that trades in off-road capability for on-road comfort, there are plenty of choices. Not so the other way around. And the Wrangler gained coil springs for '97 that did make it more comfortable on-road, but it also allowed for better articulation off-road as well. How many people on this forum are going to bash the Elise because it's spartan and rides harsh on the road?

Good lord Matt. When this thread got to post #7 and we hadn't heard from you I filled out a Missing Persons report with the PD.

DrBoost wrote: Good lord Matt. When this thread got to post #7 and we hadn't heard from you I filled out a Missing Persons report with the PD.

Spent the last few days driving back and forth across the state. May be moving soon.

Funny enough, I've been getting my plans together for the Jeep now that the E30 is set to hit the track. Money + time can go towards the Jeep now, if the GRM community doesn't lambast me for driving an impractical vehicle to partake in an off-highway activity

I bought a TJ, and it doesn't seem all that bad on the road. And that's where it mostly stays. I bought the Jeep for different reasons than most... 1, Resale value, people pay stupid money for these things, 2, Separate fenders, Ive always wanted a car with separate fenders, and 3, Convertible that seats 4. I already have two Miatas...

The thing isn't too uncomfortable, and seems to drive pretty well. Its only slightly rougher riding than a lowered Miata...

Ill take it wheeling eventually, but its happy to be a mall crawler, and as Jeepin Matt says, I havent had my Miata ontrack in a while.

Joey

I really like driving wranglers on-road.. more fun than cherokees, imo.. That being said, i have only owned cherokees so far (they didnt inherit any of the family resale value).

A Jeep is a terrible thing to live with on a daily basis, but mine were more fun than any other vehicles that I've ever owned.

And, even with the lowly 2.5, nothing's better for plowing driveways.

ignorant wrote: you owe this guy an apology for your statement. http://thesuperu.com/

I went through that whole blog... I didn't see one picture of it doing anything my stock-ride height, street-tired WRX can't do. No snorkel, wench, lift kit, required.

The only vehicles that can do what a properly outfitted Wrangler can do are the FJ40, the 1st gen Bronco,and a properly outfitted Scout. Maybe a Defender 90 I haven't had the pleasure. I have had both the Wrangler and Cherokee, liked both, but LOVED my 66 Bronco. The top doesn't come off a small 4wd pickup

4eyes wrote: The only vehicles that can do what a properly outfitted Wrangler can do are the FJ40, the 1st gen Bronco,and a properly outfitted Scout. Maybe a Defender 90 I haven't had the pleasure. I have had both the Wrangler and Cherokee, liked both, but LOVED my 66 Bronco. The top doesn't come off a small 4wd pickup

samurai?

early 4 runner?

k5?

Osterkraut wrote:

ignorant wrote: you owe this guy an apology for your statement. http://thesuperu.com/

I went through that whole blog... I didn't see one picture of it doing anything my stock-ride height, street-tired WRX can't do. No snorkel, wench, lift kit, required.

that dude is cuurrently building. Check his threads on expo.

http://offroadsubarus.com/

When I first got my jeep I had tons of Jeep-Jingoism, specifically early CJ-Jingoism. I learned my lesson after getting stuck many times in Paragon had having everything from a Turtle expedition vehicle to a stock off the showrooom floor 4runner pull me out. So then I learned some humility and realized that all the bullE36 M3 stays at the trailhead or as good natured ribbing. Been too long since I was a member of the BMJA http://www.bmja.org/ Been a long time...

ignorant wrote: samurai?

They do well, but not as stout as the Jeep.

ignorant wrote: early 4 runner?

Birfield joints break too often

ignorant wrote: k5?

Terrible BSFC. I can't believe you didn't know that. I thought you were this smart engineer?

DrBoost wrote:

ignorant wrote: samurai?

They do well, but not as stout as the Jeep.

ignorant wrote: early 4 runner?

Birfield joints break too often

ignorant wrote: k5?

Terrible BSFC. I can't believe you didn't know that. I thought you were this smart engineer?

touche and Birfields don't break any more often that those horrible hubs AMC model 20.. and the fix is the same.. Replace the shafts. Longfield with the 4runner and any number of axles for the amc20.. btw.. I'll never forget my friends face when his damn rear tire passed him at a stopsign.. hahaha. memories.

JEEP is a brand name. They come in different flavors. The CJ/wrangler is the normal offroad flavor, for those who prefer more comfort on the road , perhaps the Grand Cherokee would be more to your taste. I have heard that the new GC is a "bitchin" vehicle.

JeepinMatt wrote: Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

Yes. Because you can gain benefit from aftermarket turbos, coilover shocks and...Pirellis...on the street. However, lockers and a lift aren't any use on the road and will make the truck less of a streetable vehicle. I once got to watch a locked up Jeep understeer right across an intersection and into a parked car, going "uurp uurp uurp" the whole way as the tires fought the steering. Oops

My brother in law is building a fairly intense "Jeep" with a 6.0 LS motor in it. It's not really, about the only Jeep left is 3' of frame rail and some heavily modified body panels, but he claims that because it has a sort of body it's still a Jeep TJ and not a buggy. It's fascinating going over the thing to see the different needs and priorities of buggy builders. For example, driver ergonomics aren't considered at all. You never spend more than 15 minutes in the seat before jumping out and watching your friends try to deal with an obstacle, so having a cramped up driving position isn't as important as moving all the heavy parts to get as low a polar moment as possible. He's also installing a small winch on the rear to compress the rear suspension and keep body movement under control for big drops. Weird stuff, and very cool to check out. I've been helping out with the exhaust system a bit, partly because we have a collection of LS3 manifolds on the shelf that are a perfect fit in a "Jeep" frame. It's fun to compare his build with my MG one, because even though we're using similar drivetrains and are doing massive re-engineering of the original vehicle, we're having to go radically different directions.

Keith wrote:

JeepinMatt wrote: Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

Yes. Because you can gain benefit from aftermarket turbos, coilover shocks and...Pirellis...on the street. However, lockers and a lift aren't any use on the road and will make the truck less of a streetable vehicle. I once got to watch a locked up Jeep understeer right across an intersection and into a parked car, going "uurp uurp uurp" the whole way as the tires fought the steering. Oops

Yes, you get benefit from turbos, suspension and tires but there is a trade off. I've never heard a lifted (or stock) Jeep drag it's catalytic converter on a speed bump or it's bumper going up a driveway. But I've seen (had) Miatas with performance tires get caught in the rain and driving is dicey. And for those of us that have had Jeeps, let me tell you the advantages of a Jeep in the snow. I have never pulled a vehicle out of a snow bank with my Miata.
And as far as the understeer across the intersection, that's called keep it out of 4WD on dry pavement. A rear only locker will cause oversteer if anything, but I'll say that I've never had my lifted and locked Jeeps give me a problem on the street.

Keith wrote: My brother in law is building a fairly intense "Jeep" with a 6.0 LS motor in it. It's not really, about the only Jeep left is 3' of frame rail and some heavily modified body panels, but he claims that because it has a sort of body it's still a Jeep TJ and not a buggy.

We call those "Juggys". The jeep equivalent of a "Truggy" (Truck based buggy).

DrBoost wrote: A rear only locker will cause oversteer if anything, but I'll say that I've never had my lifted and locked Jeeps give me a problem on the street.

Selectable lockers FTW!

Based on the accident, I suspect this particular Jeep had the front locked. It was the classic slip-bite-slip-bite tire noise that caught my attention. Had he not been quite so enthusiastic with the throttle, I suspect he might have made the turn. I've driven my old Land Rover on the street with a locked rear, no major handling problems. A locked front is a different matter!

Of course you can modify any vehicle to the point of uselessness on the street. But you don't need to lift a Jeep to keep it from bottoming out on the street or to let it pull other cars out of ditches, just like you don't need to alter the suspension or horsepower of a Miata to take it on a racetrack. But the Jeep sees no benefit from lifting, a locker or big tires for street use exclusively. None, although you might be able to make a shaky case for the locker in the snow. A street-only Jeep with those alterations is a poseur Jeep. The Miata can benefit from suspension/horsepower upgrades even for street use. That's my point, not that modifying a car will affect how it drives.

I should point out that I own highly modified Miatas, an old Land Rover and a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I know what they're like on the street and the trail.

Juggy. I'll use that. Thanks!

Keith wrote:

JeepinMatt wrote: Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

Yes. Because you can gain benefit from aftermarket turbos, coilover shocks and...Pirellis...on the street.

I post this tonque in cheek more than anything because really how often does it happen......but......My 91 4x4 Suburban with mild lift and larger tires saved our ass on the interstate recently because of the mods. Basically, TN had major flooding including I 40 here in Nashville. We had already tried major highways and I40 looked to be our best option. I could gauge the depth of the water based on the SUV that was stuck, hydrolocked, right in the middle of it. Since I'd already been through deep water crossings (for fun) in the Suburban I knew how deep we could go, so while all the other cars were sitting there trying to decide how to get home, and/or waiting to get rescued, we started into the water. The Suburban made it just fine, but we couldn't have gone much deeper without a snorkle. Still, we made it thanks to a lift and larger MTs and the worst part of the trip was I40.

Now I need a snorkle for the Suburban.....and maybe just a little more lift...you know, for the interstate.

Edit: For the record this particular Suburban does see pretty regular trail use, so no mall crawler here.

I agree Keith, a locked and lifted Jeep that only sees street duty is a poser, but I think those are as rare as a Miata with some serious track hardware that never seen even an auto-X course.
Funny thing is, I see Jeeps that see tons of trail use (judging by the trail rash and mud crusted where they normally would be none) but no winch or extraction points in sight. I've helped build many Jeeps, most for newbies and they always ask "what's the best/first modification I should make?".
everytime I tell them to get a winch. That way when your balls get too big cuz you are trying to impress your buddies you can get out safely. Few have taken that advice because "it won't get me over, up, down, through or around that river, rock, hill, ravine, zombie mosh pit or wall". Eventually they see the light.

I added a hi-lift as one of my first mods, so that I would have some form of recovery gear, but a winch came later. A winch just makes recovery easier.

In reply to DrBoost:

A winch was the first thing I added to my latest Cherokee. I also used it when we got snow to pull people out of ditches on our way home from work.

JeepinMatt wrote: Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

Emphasis added to reinforce my original point. I think some folks missed that bit I have no problem with modified Jeeps that get used. Around here, that's most of them.

I don't know if I agree that a winch would be my first recommendation. Heck, I have one that I've never installed. A Hi-lift, sure. Maybe it's the Land Rover guys I hang out with, but I've only ever been on one trail run where someone had to get winched - and we did that partly because it was a training course. We could have probably managed to deal with the situation winchless. Heck, the last truck I pulled out of a ditch (three weeks ago) I did with a tow strap, no winch.

Now, no recovery points - that's goofy.

I've had to be the "conductor" on a recovery that involved 2 winches. We had a rollover that was still perched on a hill, so one was used to flip it back over while the other was mostly to keep it from going further down the hill. But the two winchers couldn't see each other, so I was the fool down near the vehicle who coordinated it all and could see both of them and what the vehicle was doing. Felt sorry for the dude who rolled, but the recovery was fun.

Keith wrote:

JeepinMatt wrote: Is a poser Jeep with lockers, lift and big tires that doesn't go off-road any more of a poser sports car with aftermarket turbos, Pirellis and coilover shocks that doesn't see the track?

Emphasis added to reinforce my original point. I think some folks missed that bit I have no problem with modified Jeeps that get used. Around here, that's most of them. I don't know if I agree that a winch would be my first recommendation. Heck, I have one that I've never installed. A Hi-lift, sure. Maybe it's the Land Rover guys I hang out with, but I've only ever been on one trail run where someone had to get winched - and we did that partly because it was a training course. We could have probably managed to deal with the situation winchless. Heck, the last truck I pulled out of a ditch (three weeks ago) I did with a tow strap, no winch. Now, no recovery points - that's goofy.

I wheel a lot on my own, which is why I like a winch first. I agree that most situations can be handled winchless, especially with a good group, but alone every little bit helps. A lot of times I also carry an 8k receiver mounted rear winch with me. It stays in the cargo area until needed though since it sits low and hangs out pretty far.