Kill the manuals! (Did you make your fleet automatic only and like it?)

What an excellent topic!  I hate manuals.  I spent two decades or so dealing with them in both car and Class 8 tractor format (Roadranger 10-speed).  They are pointless.

For a while, back when the average auto still really sucked, there was a reasonable argument that could be made for the better durability of a manual, so long as you were not the average person who could never learn how to properly use a clutch.  My experiences with the T-5 transmission (both Tremec and Borg Warner) proved this to be a very limited thing, as they self-destructed when power levels became fun.  

To reiterate a point made above, most people with manuals never really learn to use them properly, hence the proliferation of (well, there was one, once upon a time, before everything went auto) clutch replacement businesses a couple decades ago.  Runaway truck ramps in the mountains are another great example of this point.  They largely exist because people suck at doing the job of using a manual transmission.

As a final point of my E36 M3ty post, if you've ever dislocated a shoulder, busted a knee, sprained an ankle, or did all three at the the same time, you do not want your only ride to have a manual.  Mountain biking and manuals do not mix.

Edit:  Didn't answer the title question.  I have four vehicles with autos.  Nothing with a clutch pedal is missed.

MadScientistMatt said:

It depends. Some automatics seem to create a significant lag between pressing the throttle and being able to deliver the power. They feel like you've made a driveshaft out of a set of rubber bands braided into a Mexican Finger Trap. A clutch doesn't have the same lag, and this effect feels like it's bigger on four cylinders than V8s, as well.

If you're talking about newer automatics, I'm fairly certain that the "lag" you're feeling is the TC clutch slipping as its locking up. It's just like how you would slip the clutch a bit on a manual to get started.  In those type of newer automatics, it really only unlocks the TCC to start and stop.  I used to have a manual E91, then went to an automatic one because of my stupid knee, and the "lag" in the auto really pissed me off at first, but once I started driving it like I was slipping a clutch (modulating the throttle to keep the RPMs basically steady, like in a manual start-off), driving became a lot smoother.  I think the initial tendancy is to try to apply a ton of throttle at first to get past the lag, which then tells the computer to snap the TCC closed quickly, which then jerks the car, so you let then let off and you end up with a lag-jerk-lag every time you start from a stop.  

If you're talking about older autos, I usually can hear the engine revs increase as the TC is spinning up to its stall rpm as you hit the gas. The lag isn't in the throttle, its in the torque converter, so I guess I can see how you'd get the perception of driveline loss there.  

The Camry's certainly felt like torque converter slipping and delaying the acceleration. While I'm pretty sure this one had a torque converter clutch, no matter how aggressively I got on the throttle, I never spotted any sign the computer was snapping the torque converter closed in an aggressive fashion. Being a Camry, it was not programmed to do anything in an aggressive fashion.

Our fleet is half and half, my DD is a stick.  The auto in our Merc and 2010 SAAB 9-5 are good and suit the vehicles I am not ready to give up a clutch in my daily.  I just enjoy the "experience" more than driving an auto, slower or not.

In reply to rustomatic :

A a mtn biker, I somewhat agree about having at least one automatic in the fleet.  And functional cruise control. I've been in more than one post-ride condition where driving a manual would have been difficult or impossible. Hell, I've had a few instances where just driving at all was taxing. 

But at the same time, the vehicle used for those situations is merely an appliance to get me to/from the riding spot.  Things like "shift quality" or performance dynamics are not part of the selection criteria.  

My fun cars, however, are selected using a different set of parameters.  And one of those parameters - arguably at the top of the list - is how engaging is the car to drive?  I care less about how fast it is or how quickly it can get around a race track.  What matters is how much I enjoy sitting behind the wheel and operating the vehicle. And much of that enjoyment comes from operating an H-pattern gearbox. And while I will not claim to be an expert in it's operation (although the number of miles I seem to get out of clutches would indicate I'm not incompetent), the journey of improvement is part of the joy.

We are currently all auto. We don't really drive much anymore in this Covid world, but before the virus hit I was looking for something with a stick because I miss it too much... And I drive a car that is phenomenal with an auto, too. Luckily I've been at my parents a lot lately, so I've been getting my E30 fix. I don't think I'll be auto-only for too much longer. 

rustomatic said:

What an excellent topic!  I hate manuals.  I spent two decades or so dealing with them in both car and Class 8 tractor format (Roadranger 10-speed).  They are pointless.

Do you engage in any motorsports?  Or is your fleet for street use only?

So perhaps it depends upon the age of your fleet. All my current cars (two AW11 MR2's, MSM, Triumph Spitfire with a Miata engine swap and soon a TR8 are all manuals. I only have one car, a 1990 NA Miata that is automatic that we are going to eventually convert to a manual. All of these cars are best with a manual transmission, as the automatics from the 80's until early 2000's were all inferior to the manuals of the day. But fast forward another 20 years and now dual clutch and 9 speed automatics are not the penalty box they once were. 

At this point, I don't see myself buying anything new unless it is for my wife, so my cars will all be manual. 

rothwem said:

In those type of newer automatics, it really only unlocks the TCC to start and stop.

They also unlock the TCC whenever you do just about anything of significance with the throttle pedal...Perhaps not all, but the vast majority of 'newer automatics' I have been able to find/experience unfortunately still do.

I personally have five vehicles. Four of them are manual (GTi daily, e30, Porsche 924S, Dodge Raider SUV). The only one that's automatic is my Sequoia tow pig (no choice there).

My wife has an automatic CX-9 (also no choice there).

I wouldn't want a manual for a tow rig, but otherwise I'd rather have a manual in any other vehicle used for any purpose (including racing, offroading, and driving in DC Beltway rush-hour traffic). 

There were times in my life when I kind of didn't like commuting with a manual - mostly driving Acuras and Nissans that had heavy clutch pedals - but the GTI is so light my leg never tires in bumper-to-bumper traffic. 

Wife's car is auto cuz she can't drive a stick, and my GMC is auto, too. Miata, MINI and GTI are stick because they'd be no fun at all with autos. Challenge car is an auto because I can't find a manual for 80 bucks. I've been mulling over what to buy in a new car to replace the MINI, as it's getting long in the tooth and there aren't a lot of choices with manual transmissions any more. I'll have something with a stick until the day comes that I need hip or knee replacement.

I have one manual and one automatic, and while I do still enjoy rowing my own modern automatics are pretty fantastic. The automatic in my Honda Odyssey, of all things, is really, really good. Switch it to sport mode and the shifts are quick and firm, and it keeps the RPMs in the sweet spot; ridiculous for a minivan.

Between the wife and I, we have four cars. Only one of them has a manual. Both my elderly vehicles have tried-and-true 3 speed automatics, and the wife's CX-5's 6-speed box is one of the best automatics out there today. I have nothing against a good auto box. 

When I was car shopping last week, I came REAL close to buying something with an automatic. This time around, I stuck with looking at mostly sport compact stuff, and I feel they are more fun with a stick. In some cases, they are more reliable as well. One thing I can tell you for certain: I cannot stand CVT's. I've driven a few of them from different manufacturers and came away unimpressed. And judging by the mountain of CVT cores at the Nissan dealer my friend works at, at least those ones can't be trusted. 

My next car will most likely be an automatic. Hopefully there's a V8 sitting in front of it. Both the 10-speed in the new Mustang GT and the 8-speed in the Charger/Challenger are absolutely fantastic. 

Tony Sestito said:

Hopefully there's a V8 sitting in front of it. Both the 10-speed in the new Mustang GT and the 8-speed in the Charger/Challenger are absolutely fantastic. 

The gsf/RCF V8+AT isn't bad either. My wife very happy with her RCF last 2.5 years. She will get a new GSF as the last ones roll off the factory line 

of course rumor is new IS500 is getting the same yamaha V8, without the "Isf" name 

Always keep at least 1 manual in the fleet.  I succumbed to the PDK in my Porsche, but have a Z3, a Fj80 Landcruiser and a 1975 280z with manuals.

I honestly don't have a strict preference, it depends on the car.  I don't like CVT just because of the short lifespan, but otherwise it depends on the car.  I have one of each currently and am fine with driving either in any situation.

maj75 (Forum Supporter) said:

Always keep at least 1 manual in the fleet.  I succumbed to the PDK in my Porsche, but have a Z3, a Fj80 Landcruiser and a 1975 280z with manuals.

When we bought our new 80 series, dealer had all AT only 

our 60 was the last MT, LC we owned. 
 

of course MT 100/200 avail in other parts of the world 

BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

I was stick-shift-less for a little while, but I missed having a smaller lightweight car and those need a manual to be properly fun. So now there’s a Neon in the driveway. The other three are automatics.

I was going to write this, basically.  My XC90 would not be improved with a stick.  My Sentra is way more fun with a stick.

If either of my Miatas had been automatics, they would have been used as winter beaters instead fun cars for 9 months out of the year.

The whole point of an automatic in my eyes is to enable a bench seat.

If you don't have that, might as well have a stick.

I will never kill the manuals unless my knees give out. I am a Gen X curmudgeon who digs the direct engagement so there's a romantic notion there because emotional feeling & et cetera --- I had to replace a car I drove nearly 30 years (yes, I tend to be a one-marque fanboy squirrel) which was a 1986 Saab 900 Turbo and since I'm stubborn AF and the options were limited for manual gearbox'd 3dr hatchbacks that are my preference for reasons that make no sense yet satisfy my soul, ended up with the sadomasochistic choice of 2006 MINI Cooper S JCW, and like John Cougar said it hurts so good --- maintenance + restomod can be painful, but driving experience is max level funstuff.

I care not to debate over any logical argument regarding superiority of newtech auto because yes I do concede they are prolly better or whatever for tick tock seconds timetrimming, but I ain't do no motorsports, justa humble B-road bomber who loves a clutch...

...I travel for work all throughout the SE, live in NW Ga., so I get to explore and have fun during my commutes, all that matters to me is feeling and in that sense I'm a hedonistic existentialist who just digs the squiggles much more with a slow rowboat.

Most recent rideback home was Friday and it was a total blast, I doubt it would have been as enjoyable to the same extent if I was driving an automatic transmission, but anything is possible these days so I won't go b&w concrete yaynay good/bad whatever, just a personal viewpoint of preference for me.

btw

Calimoto app is awesome as berkeley E30.

MrFancypants said:

I have one manual and one automatic, and while I do still enjoy rowing my own modern automatics are pretty fantastic. The automatic in my Honda Odyssey, of all things, is really, really good. Switch it to sport mode and the shifts are quick and firm, and it keeps the RPMs in the sweet spot; ridiculous for a minivan.

Which Odyssey trans are you talking about?

Clearly the participants on this site can be divided into two groups, the shifty and the shiftless.  Not sure either one does us credit.....

I'd go out and buy a DAF Daffodil (first use of a CVT Variomatic trans)  but then we'd get into a discussion of whether a CVT is different or just a special case of automatic even though it has no gears as such.

I think that while torque converter automatics and manual transmissions were once two clear options what we have today doesn't break down so easily.  Furthermore, all of the options we have available seem to have improved over the options that existed 10, 20, and 30 years ago.

• Standard Torque Converter Automatic - Typically 6-10 gears in recent cars
• CVT Automatic - Infinite gear ratios
• Automated Manual - PDK, DSG, DCT etc.
• Manual - Full control for the user
• Single Speed - Electric Motors
• Hybrid - Many ways to cover this, but a combination of engine and motor power to fill gap

Each of the above has a place and I've had good and bad examples of nearly every type.  For my boring highway commute with barely any turns my Volt is my favorite choice, and I genuinely like the one pedal operation you can find in some hybrids and EVs.  For fun the Manual is my favorite, but my short stint with a VW DSG shows promise especially for a dual purpose vehicle that needs to be a daily driver and a fun car.

^One note:  CVT provides an infite # of gears, but the max & min ratios are finite.