Learn Me: Cheapest road racing

what about the roundy round? There have to be ladders for "stock" cars, if you are going to make money in this country racing then that is the place to do it.

If the goal is to get noticed, I vote for Formula Ford as the logical step from Karts to cars. Formula cars should be cheaper to operate than production cars, have higher limits, faster speeds, they should have solid fields, and they "look like a racecar". The downside is a higher buy-in, though they hold that value, so you can recoup when it's time for whatever comes next.

That said, I'd steer him solidly towards "driving is a hobby, not a career." I've seen too many fast kids get a twinkle in their eye about being the next ____, and piss away real life in pursuit, only to end up in their early 20's with nothing but a bunch of uncle Rico stories and a job that serves fries.

imirk wrote: what about the roundy round? There have to be ladders for "stock" cars, if you are going to make money in this country racing then that is the place to do it.

me too for the oval. Way more seat time, more cars on a smaller track make for more intense racing, more experience perfecting setups, cheaper cars, cheaper entry, usually more track variety in a smaller geographic area...

I like the trauma surgeon idea. I would do something to foment his love of motorsport while concurrently getting a college degree in a useful field: engineering, medicine, etc - or becoming a modern master in a vocational field. I do though, admire your "dad"ness. Good on ya. How do I get my kid into karting (cheaply)?

F500, FV or stay in karts.

Or, more seriously, go to races. Go to schools, learn the craft of racing as much as possible.

From what I've read in a lot of "how I became a pro driver" stories, staying in karts makes the most sense. Yes, its been done other ways, but showing talent and results in karts seems to be the most consistent.

He must be humble. It seems pro teams have little patience for prima donna drivers anymore.

School is still very important. A lot of pro drivers in many series (including NASCAR) have engineering educations. Plus, it provides a potential back up career if he can't make it as a driver but wants to stay with a career in racing.

Thanks for all of the advice.

Just so everyone understands where I'm coming from. First, karting is and will always be a hobby. I ask him after every weekend, "Did you have fun?" Because the day he doesn't, we stop.
Granted, national races are a big deal. There's a ton of pressure and there have been some good and not so good days, but I still stress it should NOT feel like a job at his age. Matter of fact, I'm often telling him the things he did well or learn while he's beating himself up about mistakes.
I don't look at him and automatically think he'll be the next F1 or Indy or NASCAR driver. We've already discussed college (to some degree, he's 10) and I explained what a mechanical engineer does, focusing on strong math skills. He talks about being in the car half the time and designing it the other half.
If it's done nothing else, karting has given him a passion and something he could make a living out of in many different facets and he and I have developed a bond that many dads and sons often don't have.

With all that, he is getting older. He will be looking towards cars one day. I have to start planning early from a learning perspective and from a financial perspective if he does get into cars. And, if he does (which he probably will) I would much rather it be in a series where (if he continues to show talent) he could be seen/rub elbows/become friends with those in the business.

-Rob

Rent a ride somewhere and see how it goes.

944 spec has seen two father/son combo in is ranks.

Austin Newmark started in Karts and moved to 944 spec in NASA. Their goal was/is the pro ranks. I believe he was 14 when he first started racing cars. Took a season to really get going, but did well. Won a regional championship and did well in a couple national championship races, but did not win. Moved on to spec open wheel series and did test in Daytona Prototype. Not sure on is 2012 plans.

Second is Tyler Palmer. He has done well in regional races and on 2010 came in 2nd in National Championshop race (2 corners short from win) and in 2011 won the National championshop in 944 Spec. Not 100% certain of his plans, but seems like a good kid. I will be racing against him this weekend.

So what does this mean? 944 spec can be a low cost feeder series. However you need to understand you/his goals. Do you want to go pro or just have fun hobby. If you want to go pro it is alot of work and the key is getting noticed. Austin go into cars and then hooked up with Pro driver Darren Law and few magazine/news paper articles. Connections are important.

So you need to pick a series where your kid can show his talent and gain some attention. Most of the time a spec series is best for this since the driver is supposed to make the difference. Exposure is the hard part and doing it on budget is even harder.

Now if the racing is just for fun then what ever is close and cheap will work. If you never have to worry about getting notices you can run series people have never heard of, but works for your budget.

BTW.. I Nationally competitive 944 spec will tend to cost less than a similarly competive spec miata. Mid pack they tend to be very similar in cost, but the top SM guys tend to put more money in to their cars as compared to the 944 spec guys. I know this because my car lead the 2009 Nationals for most of the race. Ended up 4th (2.5 seconds out of first), but I know what went in my car and it can be done a budget. I missed Nationals in 2010 and 2011 for non racing related reasons. Hey I am a weekend racer so racing is not a number 1 prority.

rob_lewis wrote: Thanks for all of the advice. Just so everyone understands where I'm coming from. First, karting is and will always be a hobby. I ask him after every weekend, "Did you have fun?" Because the day he doesn't, we stop. Granted, national races are a big deal. There's a ton of pressure and there have been some good and not so good days, but I still stress it should NOT feel like a job at his age. Matter of fact, I'm often telling him the things he did well or learn while he's beating himself up about mistakes. I don't look at him and automatically think he'll be the next F1 or Indy or NASCAR driver. We've already discussed college (to some degree, he's 10) and I explained what a mechanical engineer does, focusing on strong math skills. He talks about being in the car half the time and designing it the other half. If it's done nothing else, karting has given him a passion and something he could make a living out of in many different facets and he and I have developed a bond that many dads and sons often don't have. With all that, he is getting older. He will be looking towards cars one day. I have to start planning early from a learning perspective and from a financial perspective if he does get into cars. And, if he does (which he probably will) I would much rather it be in a series where (if he continues to show talent) he could be seen/rub elbows/become friends with those in the business. -Rob

I think it'll be easiest to not have to pay a fortune to race if you're winning national-level kart races than if you're doing well in a formula-car series that nobody watches. Just racing regionally, my costs for everything but tires went down the better I got. At the end my rental rate was about half what it was when I started.

My opinion, which is based on watching where top-line drivers in a bunch of series came from and went, is that there is no such thing as a "ladder" in road racing. The last not-backed-by-a-fortune drivers to make the big time came up by racing karts till they were nationally dominant, then switching to sprint cars on dirt - and even then they took a gamble with borrowed money to go straight into an IndyCar or national-series NASCAR for a few races.

You're within a reasonable drive from MSR Houston. Your kid expresses interest in being a Mark Donohue type. Check out UT-Arlington or Texas A&M FSAE in a few years. FSAE will not lead to F1 or IndyCar as a driver. It will certainly open up doors at the Big 3 etc. It may lead to F1 or IndyCar as an engineer.

I know, short season but ice racing can be inexpensive. In some, your street car can compete with no modifications. Learning to controll a car on ice is a geat learning tool. We have summer racers who ice race in order to keep sharp. Ok, it is only for places that have ice.

Something else to look into it a ThunderRoadster. They are relatively cheap to purchase (used typically range from 6 - 8k) and are super easy on consumables. Tires typically last an entire season, brakes even longer. They use motorcycle engines and transmissions which are readily available.

How much are you looking to spend up front? right now there's a spec 944 on the nasa sight for 8500, and a spec e30 for 9500.

I built my Spec Miata for under $7k in 2006, and that's including the price of the car and a hardtop. It was competitive against the $25k cars for a while, but as those guys kept spending more and more, their lap times got better quicker than my lap times got better. A good lap at Sebring in '06 was a 2:41, now it's a 2:35. My lap times went from 2:44 to 2:40 in that same amount of time. I switched to F Prod this last year and won the regional championship with 6 wins, 5 seconds, 2 thirds, and a fifth. It was still more SM than FP.

But you will ALWAYS have someone to race with in SM.

how did the spending keep escalating in spec miata?

icaneat50eggs wrote: how did the spending keep escalating in spec miata?

In a nutshell: the money teams would buy engine parts in mass quanitites and then mix and match them so as to build the best engine possible. Perfectly legal and very expensive, but when the cars are so closely matched an extra few HP can be the difference.

Ian F wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: how did the spending keep escalating in spec miata?

In a nutshell: the money teams would buy engine parts in mass quanitites and then mix and match them so as to build the best engine possible. Perfectly legal and very expensive, but when the cars are so closely matched an extra few HP can be the difference.

Funny, it sounds just like kart racing.....

-Rob

rob_lewis wrote:

Ian F wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: how did the spending keep escalating in spec miata?

In a nutshell: the money teams would buy engine parts in mass quanitites and then mix and match them so as to build the best engine possible. Perfectly legal and very expensive, but when the cars are so closely matched an extra few HP can be the difference.

Funny, it sounds just like kart racing..... -Rob

Guys do the same thing in classic T-Jet slot car racing. It's amazing how much money can get dumped into a little HO car.

If he dreams of racing for a living, he needs to be in a class where someone actually cares. Without mortgaging everything you have and going open wheel, your only real option is showroom stock or touring. Manufacturers do look at those results and will supply cars for some drivers. For example, the Celica that won last year's SSC race was far cheaper than $10k complete, and it's easy on tires and brakes. It's getting a restrictor this year, but other cars in the class are also inexpensive, such as the Scion.

Rob - I just found this, it's been a couple of years now I was wondering what you decided on? BTW I was surprised that the Skip Barber Formula Ford series was not mentioned as an avenue. Best of luck. EZ

rob_lewis wrote: With all that, he is getting older. He will be looking towards cars one day. I have to start planning early from a learning perspective and from a financial perspective if he does get into cars. And, if he does (which he probably will) I would much rather it be in a series where (if he continues to show talent) he could be seen/rub elbows/become friends with those in the business. -Rob

Buy a stock Miata NOW. Start building his spec Miata with him. By the time he is ready to drive it you will either have a car he can drive or a kid that knows he hates wrenching. Everything you guys do will teach him about setup, engineering, hard work, and perseverance. His "what I did last summer" essay and presentation about building a race car with dad could be the first step towards talking to prospective sponsors. If nothing else he'll learn how to fix his own cars, and that isn't all bad.

Ian F wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: how did the spending keep escalating in spec miata?

In a nutshell: the money teams would buy engine parts in mass quanitites and then mix and match them so as to build the best engine possible. Perfectly legal and very expensive, but when the cars are so closely matched an extra few HP can be the difference.

Sounds like pretty much any spec race series that doesn't gave a sealed engine or engine claim rule. Formula Ford was just as bad at this when I was crewing for one. Sucks, but that's what racing is all about, going as fast as possible within the rules.

Good to see a parent encouraging (and planning ahead) their kids desire to race. My parents response to racing was "see how fast you can cut the lawn"

In reply to iceracer:

I came to post this. I'd find a used logbooked RWD car, spec 944 would be a good choice and do a season of ice racing for car control then do NASA spec 944 with it. Other then miata or staying in karting that's the way. I wouldn't look past midgets either, going the stock car route while being a road course ringer can be the backdoor into making a series where driver's actually get paid.

Wonder how Rob and his son decided on. The only thing I concluded was that Rob needs to make lots of money.

Check out this spreadsheet of purchase and operational costs for about 25 road racing classes.  I put this together by surveying the various communities (forums) for the classes.  There are some surprises in the operational costs.  Some classes you might think are cheap, are not.

Road racing operational costs by class

If you disagree with any of the data there, you can comment in the spreadsheet and I will respond.

Greg