Context:
I am an not, and probably never will be, in the market for an EV. Never so much as sat in one yet. If all cars were EVs, I might own one, but would never be a "Car Guy".
I am however, curious and can't find a clear answer to my question:
... leaving out all of the socio-political BS around the subject, are there any fundamental technical differences between the Chinese electric vehicles on the market and the EVs from the rest of the world?
Pete
I encourage you to watch some Dougy D videos on the Chinese EVs.
Basically they are cars built by tech companies, not car companies attempting to do tech. Its an interesting and arguably better way of doing it since they are no encumbered by years of legacy design language, overhead, and preconceived notions.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
It's also arguably a worse way of doing it because you don't have any experience in designing, knowing what overhead is needed, and what preconceived notions customers prefer.
Remember, the auto industry is probably the most competitive individual market in the world (outside of individual farmers)- I can think of over 10 individual manufacturers that sell in the US alone. Way more than phones, computers, washers, etc. Especially when you look at who actually makes the important parts. So all of that "legacy" can always be improved on to gain a massive competitive advantage. And if it were actually possible, inevitably, someone will (or have). The system isn't fast to change because it's also incredibly complicated. Vehicles are very much not computers.
The only "advantage" that new EV companies have is not having to design and develop an ICE. Which helps an enormous amount, but it still takes many years to design, develop, and be able to make a lot of just the vehicle. Consumers are rightly very brutally honest WRT cars- if spurred by Honda, go to Hyundai, Ford leaves you stranded- got to the Toyota, etc.. Love the big market.
The one thing Chinese companies have an advantage of- the can legally collude to learn how to make vechicles.
3 big differences:
safety & environmental regulations and standards; much lower. Allows for more rapid development and wider use-cases due to lower cost and lighter weight.
battery tech; China produces at least 80% of the high-energy batteries in the world. The top 3 companies are all in China, and they are trying the new technologies. Some of them make it to us, some of them never succeed, but they get tested in China first.
(As noted) legacy companies; not just the "move fast and break stuff" mentality, but the ability to offer warranties with no care because they can just shut down the company and reopen under a new name. You see this to a massive degree in the lithium battery space.
there is also the geographic, government, and cultural differences, which allows for more acceptance. Higher urbanization, as well as a glorified golf cart being a huge upgrade over a bike means a much more willing marketplace.
So no real technical differences in regards to motors or power storage. But perhaps a more innovation friendly environment for the companies in China. I have worked with Chinese companies in the medical device space, and I understand the value of being able to move at their pace.
NOHOME said:So no real technical differences in regards to motors or power storage. But perhaps a more innovation friendly environment for the companies in China. I have worked with Chinese companies in the medical device space, and I understand the value of being able to steal intellectual property at their pace.
FTFY
Also, many of the ultra cheap Chinese EVs we've heard about in the news are a little smaller than a (2010 era) Fiat 500. Whether these could be made to pass US safety standards, and what it would cost to get them to do so, are anyone's guess. Well, execs at other car companies probably have some very detailed reports about that question, but they're not sharing.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Yes, that is a significant part of their competitive advantage when it comes to price, and the Chinese make no bones or apologies about it. The US patent system is impotent when it comes to China. But we digress. Eh?
Yeah there's no secret-sauce technology in them. They're cheap because they're made with very cheap labor, sometimes even "prisoners with jobs," and don't have to meet first-world safety and emissions regs (Edit: Well I guess emissions doesn't really apply here 
)
To the OP's question, I think the government there has subsidized heavily and utilized the knowledge gained from joint ventures with Western companies to rapidly build their EV automotive industry. And while they aren't fundamentally different than Western technology, they do seem to have reached the point where they are leading the market, certainly in battery technology, and software systems (and cost).
As far as comments about not meeting safety standards, that's only true for some of their domestic market only products. The top tier brands have offerings that meet EU standards.
Cost advantage is tricky I think due to government subsidies, but it is telling that the global market cars tend to be priced just slightly below their local competition but much higher than the prices in for same model in China. I tend to think that the export cars are priced to achieve reasonable margins based on true cost, whereas the domestic pricing has government subsidies artificially keeping prices low, but who knows.
Plus it's a young industry with many many players in the market with a far wider range of quality of products than you'd see in the US. And the more wealthy coastal cities have customer quality and safety expectations very much in line with the US and EU markets, but there's a few hundred million people in the interior who have much less disposable income which provides a huge market for the lower end competitors.
There are some good points and counterpoints about Chinese cars in this thread, but the fact remains that Chinese car companies have matured enormously over the the past few years and are now gaining strong foothold in markets around the globe.
For example, the first BYD cars were introduced 20 years ago; cheap mediocre cars at a time when Chinese vehicles were a laughingstock. A decade later BYD was making cars that were competitive in a number of global markets. Last year BYD was the 3rd best selling auto brand in the world, behind Toyota and VW. Cars like the BYD Seal are competitive with Teslas and have scored five stars in Euro NCAP safety testing.
BYDs are actually pretty decent little cars. They are not new Bentleys, but they are at least Chrysler or Nissan levels of good. Ive rode in a handful and they are fine little run-abouts. BYD just announced they are building cars and chargers capable of charging at 1 Megawatt - something like 240 miles range in 5 minutes. Thats it, EV Game over.
https://www.wired.com/story/byd-5-minute-ev-charging/
More and more, look at what the buying public cares about, and it makes great sense for tech companies to build cars. They already know how to make devices that people interact with way more than vehicles (looking at you, cell phone companies). They know how to do interfaces, software updates, circuitry, and experiences way way better than most car companies and certainly better than the big three. Once you have that figured out, the rest is a cakewalk. Its fairly easy to copy a suspension design, a cabin and seating layout, or a body structure. Its a lot harder to develop a likable user experience and that is where the tech companies have a huge head start.
93gsxturbo said:I encourage you to watch some Dougy D videos on the Chinese EVs.
Basically they are cars built by tech companies, not car companies attempting to do tech. Its an interesting and arguably better way of doing it since they are no encumbered by years of legacy design language, overhead, and preconceived notions.
That's why people had traditionally hated or at least been heavily weirded out by Teslas, as they did not have things like "keys". And the interior part of the driving experience is the same touchscreen everything that is driving people to repair and maintain 20 year old cars rather than buy new ones.
Look at how many people on this forum complain about weird shifters in cars. That's what you get when you ignore legacy design and preconcieved notions.
This forum is not a good representative of the public at large based on what you see on the roads.
Get off my lawn, give me my 3 on the tree, key start, and crank windows. And get off my lawn.
93gsxturbo said:This forum is not a good representative of the public at large based on what you see on the roads.
Get off my lawn, give me my 3 on the tree, key start, and crank windows. And get off my lawn.
Nah, I like modern amenities in cars. Heated seats, power windows, nice stereo, etc.
Remember that the buying public seems to consider android auto/carplay a must-have. Suspension design? Pshaw. I want my phone on that screen! Only car nerds care about anything else.
As for safety, the C-NCAP is pretty darn close to the European testing regimen. Naturally, not all cars ace it - which is also true of other markets.
Keith Tanner said:Remember that the buying public seems to consider android auto/carplay a must-have. Suspension design? Pshaw. I want my phone on that screen! Only car nerds care about anything else.
As for safety, the C-NCAP is pretty darn close to the European testing regimen. Naturally, not all cars ace it - which is also true of other markets.
Xiaomi made headlines recently when the SU7 earned five stars (C-NCAP) and it's score of 93.5% was the highest tested. Xiaomi is a company best known for its mobile phones; the SU7 is its first car.
Xiaomi out there proving that you dont need to be a 100 year old brand with offices in Detroit to build something real nice.
Dont need much experience to get a popular midsize sedan and copy it, change the headlights, put your (typically better) tech in it, and put it on the market. The lack of needing powertrain certifications has been a tremendous boom to "Experience" companies and let them play in a market that had much higher barriers to entry 10-15 years ago.
Lots of good articles on the subject. I like the online news group Electrek for good real world info on the Chinese as well as all other EV's. If this is in reference to the insanely quick charge times that are in the news lately that is due to something they aren't clarifying. They have 600KW charging infrastructure vs most of the rest of the world having 150-350KW charging infrastructure. Their software and tech are good. The batteries are cheaper but no different than any of the other battery techs being used in the rest of the world.
I will say they are embarrassingly good and a true threat to the established world's automotive production. From memory they are landing the EV SUV offsets to EMEA for $24K after the tariffs vs the VW ID4 at $40K. This is an enormous delta that has the auto industry freaking out.
Will there be a way to fix these Chinese EVs if something goes wrong on them in a few years ,
I would think by then they will be onto the next big thing and not care about old tech :(
This is probably true with most EVs , just China is already known for selling stuff without much support.
In reply to californiamilleghia :
I think we said the same thing about Korean cars. And before that, Japanese ones.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well, Korean cars were pretty crap when they were new. And they were at least up to the mid 00s.
I'm deeply remembering Hyundais that didn't have any kind of fault tolerance/detection for things on the engine controls' 5vref circuit. Most automakers have a signal that goes from .5v to 4.5v and they throw out signals above or below that as a failed component, because that's the only way that the signal can go up to 5v or down to ground. Not so for Hyundai, they'd cheerfully accept a sudden railing to 5v because the sensor ground lost contact and, say, assume that you hit full throttle and slam the trans down to 1st gear, which could also slam your face into the steering wheel and break engine mounts.
And the more recent debacle where they don't seem to understand the idea that someone who isn't the vehicle's owner may wish to break off the ignition lock and make off with the car. (It took a while for Japanese automakers to have decent antitheft, too, most older Japanese cars and the Korean copies can be unlocked faster without a key than with, and it took a lot of time for American insurance companies to get them to understand the concept of auto theft)
In reply to nderwater :
The interesting thing is that the most problematic electronics in any modern car are invariably related to the infotaiment/telematics, because the tech used in them is fairly "new" and unproven and turns out to not play very nice in cars that are highly variable in temperature, vibrate a lot, and are generally an electrically noisy environment.
Rule #1 for parasitic draws is that you check the cellular module first, if equipped. Rule #2 is that it's the radio or one of its components.
Xiaomi is a tech company, Tesla is also sort of a tech company, which have successfully made building vehicles vs the big manufactures work. Xiaomi sells its base model for $30k; however, prices have dropped in China (see below from the financial times), while new car prices in the US have risen by over 22% since 2019. I watched the video for the Xiaomi SU7 by Doug D, not sold on what he is selling, he also added that tarrifs woudl likely price it in the Tesla area for a base, plus the credits of Ev's are going to disappear. I have a plugin hybrid and if I use the 20-30 miles which isn't consistent (I live in Ohio with constant changes in weather) on its best day it is $.19 per mile (normal plug at home takes 15 hours to charge) versus $.12 per mile for gas (pretty consistently). I rather see a tech company produce a clean burning fuel source that can be used in any vehicle.
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